Talk:2019 El Paso shooting

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A news item involving 2019 El Paso shooting was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 4 August 2019.

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On 23 February 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to El Paso Walmart shooting. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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...I went out and took some pictures. You're welcome to add any you like to the article. Hopefully, they'll help spruce it up a little. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:53, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason, the lead includes this oddity, claiming that this tragedy constituted the:

"…deadliest attack on Latinos in modern American history since the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting."

The fact that this attack had the highest number of Latino victims in the US in the prior three years hardly seems lead-worthy, does it? It's not much of a "record"—and I'd question whether it even belongs in the article body.

Look forward to thoughts—thanks! ElleTheBelle ElleTheBelle 12:55, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed this, partly because it leads to a clunky looking sentence, but mainly because there is no evidence that Omar Mateen intended to kill Latinos in the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting. Pulse was hosting a Latin Night, but Mateen probably didn't know this and it was just a coincidence.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There was a guilty conviction, can we change this article's title to mass murder now? Yousef Raz (talk) 04:44, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The only previous discussion on the title was Talk:2019 El Paso shooting/Archive 2#Time for a common name yet? where El Paso Walmart shooting was suggested. Kinda surprising; there are often long dramatic discussions about new article titles about major events. I also found in the article log an attempt to rename this to 2019 El Paso Massacre, but it was reverted immediately with no apparent discussion. Anyhow, I went thru a bunch of the citations, the info box, redirects, categories, and discussions to find potential descriptors that might be considered for the title. In no particular order I found "shooting", "mass shooting", "rampage", "attack", "mass murder", "massacre", "race massacre", "anti-immigration", "terrorist", "domestic terrorist", "hate crime", "racist", "Latino", "El Paso", "El Paso, Texas", "mall", "shopping-complex", "shopping center", "Walmart", "Cielo Vista Mall" and "2019". We also have to look at the policy in Wikipedia:Article titles (WP:CRITERIA, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NAMECHANGES, etc). After all that, I found I like the title as is, but I would not oppose 2019 El Paso mass shooting. I prefer letting the reader decide for themselves how to classify these events in their own mind as much as possible and the recent news reports about the sentencing still refer to him as a "shooter" and the incident as a "shooting". Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Im good with 2019 El Paso mass shooting. Yousef Raz (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The photo that pops up for "mass shooting". I see a black male holding a shotgun in a hallway. I do not think this is an accurate nor appropriate use for the term nor representative of what should be shown. Funsizeguy (talk) 20:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This relates to the article Mass shooting so it would be better to take it up as an issue there.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:24, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that 2019 El Paso shooting be renamed and moved to 2019 El Paso Walmart shooting. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

2019 El Paso shooting → 2019 El Paso Walmart shooting – Per WP:UCRN. Though at the time of the shooting (around 2019) the shooting was more commonly referred to as something in the vein of "El Paso shooting" by reliable sources, in recent years reliable sources trend towards calling it something akin to "El Paso Walmart shooting". Out of 50 articles published since 2020 about the incident, 42 mention Walmart in the title while 8 do not. The 'Walmart' aspect appears to be part of a commonly recognised naming convention, which should be reflected in the page's title. Reliable sources that tended to include 'Walmart' in their titles include CNN, PBS, BBC News, ABC News, AP News, The Independent, the Washington Post, NBC News and others. Local news sources, such as the Texas Tribune and El Paso Times, tended to also refer to 'Walmart' in their titles. I recommend '2019 El Paso Walmart shooting' as it fits other naming conventions. If needed, I can provide several of the referenced articles, though they can be found by Google search. Macxcxz (talk) 11:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:47, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. A quick look at Category:Attacks on supermarkets in the United States shows that most store attack articles omit the name of the store. WWGB (talk) 12:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Commonly recognised names take priority over Wikipedia conventions, no? That is why some in that category do still have the business' name in their titles, isn't it? Macxcxz (talk) 14:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: Current title is ok, per the reasons given by WWGB.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The location here is contextually important, and as proposed by nominator is usually included in titles given by sources. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW from a search "El Paso Walmart shooting" is far and above the common name in sources discussing this vs just El Paso. Sometimes they just call it the "Walmart shooting". Very few sources (except for breaking news ones that are old) call it just the El Paso shooting. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Texas, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography/Serial Killer task force, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Discrimination, WikiProject Death, WikiProject United States History, WikiProject Terrorism, WikiProject 2010s, WikiProject Disaster management, and WikiProject United States have been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:48, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: 2019 El Paso shooting follows the same naming standards as most mass shooting articles that happened in facilities such as retail stores. 2021 Boulder shooting isn't 2021 Boulder King Snoopers shooting, and the 2022 Buffalo shooting isn't called the 2022 Buffalo Tops shooting. It's simply an unneccesary word and although it's not the end of the world to add it in there, I can't find myself supporting it especially since this shooting is most frequently actually called the El Paso shooting (which is too broad in my opinion), not the El Paso Walmart shooting (which isn't too bad when you remove the year, but with other shootings, 2019 El Paso shooting is probably the best name we have). MountainJew6150 (talk) 04:55, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can see is most commonly called the El Paso Walmart shooting. Here is a survey of recent news articles:

Use Walmart/identify Walmart in title:

• AP News - The Texas shooter in a racist Walmart attack is going to prison. Here’s what to know about the case
• NBC News - El Paso Walmart mass shooter sentenced to 90 consecutive life terms
• AP News - Texas gunman in Walmart shooting gets 90 consecutive life sentences and may still face death penalty
• ABC News - El Paso Walmart gunman Patrick Crusius given 90 life sentences in federal trial
• El Paso matters - Walmart mass shooting case could be tried in mid-2026 under judge’s schedule
• El Paso matters - El Paso Walmart gunman due back in court in September
• KFOX - Walmart shooter appears in public state court for first time since 2019; new hearing set
• Baltimore sun - Walmart shooter appears in public state court for first time since 2019; new hearing set
• AP News - US won’t seek death penalty for alleged Texas Walmart gunman
• Texas Tribune - Defense lawyers allege prosecutorial misconduct in El Paso Walmart shooting case
• ABC news - Walmart shooter appears in public state court for first time since 2019; new hearing set

Vs ones that call other things:

• The Washington Post - Mexicans victimized in El Paso mass killing struggle to heal, obtain visas
• Texas Tribune - Gunman in 2019 El Paso mass shooting receives 90 life sentences
• NBC News - Five years after El Paso massacre targeting Latinos killed 23, 'invasion' rhetoric has amplified
• Austin-American Statesman - The El Paso massacre: Five years later, Latinos are still under attack

The usage of Walmart in discussing the attack is very very common, above the name of the city. AP usually calls it the "El Paso Walmart shooting". Also, I think those pages are also named badly, and the common name is probably not just the city (at least in the case of Buffalo). WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a great argument. PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:44, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as the naming is more WP:PRECISE, too. There are 5 criteria for naming an article with Recognizability being one of them. The name not only needs to be common it also needs to be recognizable, otherwise what distinguishes this particular shooting from all the other discharges of a firearm that might have taken place in El Paso in 2019 that Wikipedia has not yet written about? - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The Good Article on the 2011 Tucson shooting isn't called the "2011 Tucson Safeway shooting". Any idea why not? Viriditas (talk) 21:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Viriditas Because that was an attempted assassination and not a general targeting of the population, also it was in a parking lot. Also, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, certain things have different names. We don't go by just the city in every case; in any case most of the actual sources on that shooting actually call it the Arizona shooting, or the Giffords shooting. We should go by what the titles call it, not WP:OR. Also per Cameron Dewe above this is more recognizable, it is not the only mass shooting that has happened in El Paso and some people might not remember the year. PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  There's an entire book on the shooting called A Safeway in Arizona: What the Gabrielle Giffords Shooting Tells Us About the Grand Canyon State and Life in America (2011). Viriditas (talk) 23:04, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes. The "Gabrielle Giffords shooting". It was in front of the Safeway, he was not targeting the Safeway, Crusius targeted the Walmart. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Nope. Loughner targeted Giffords and the general population, which is why the shooting is categorized as a mass shooting. Six people were shot dead, and 13 were injured by gunfire. After shooting Giffords in the head, "Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd". So, no. Viriditas (talk) 23:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Targeting means to set out with the intention to attack that person or group. He planned the shooting with the intention to target Gifford and when he got there he attacked other people opportunistically. That was not the plan, he just did it. Shootings that are initially targeting one person and then spread to other people are still mass shootings. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:19, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Nope. According to the FBI, Loughner intended to murder Giffords and "citizens attending her community event", and this is what Loughner admitted to in court.[1] Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I concede to that point. However, it wasn't the building itself, but the Giffords community event. So my point about the intended target still stands. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  It was the Giffords community event in the parking lot of the Safeway store. I'm pretty sure you need the express permission of Safeway to do this. The Safeway near me, for example, is popularly known for holding annual fundraisers for the Special Olympics through a partnership with the local police department. These events are tightly coordinated and identified with the supermarket, and take place on the roof of the Safeway for added marketing impact, giving it in the sensational title of "Cop on Top". This is easy for people to remember. "Congress on Your Corner" is essentially the same idea, but instead of on the roof, the Giffords event was held in the parking lot. Safeway has a history of holding these kinds of events on their property. Viriditas (talk) 00:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  1 ) It's not commonly called the Safeway shooting relative to other titles, unlike El Paso, which is usually referred to as the El Paso Walmart shooting

  2 ) IMO, the Tucson title as is is bad, as not specific.

  3 ) It still wasn't targeted purposefully as Safeway or general public location. It happened to be in the parking lot of the Safeway, because for the reasons you stated Giffords was there, but this is off topic from El Paso at this point PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  That article is titled as it is as that is how it is presumably referred to by reliable sources, while also providing vital information like the year it occurred. This has no relevance to changing the name of this article. Most likely, "Safeway" was omitted as it is not a significant aspect of the attack, given that it was Gifford's event being targeted, rather than the store itself or its patrons. For example, it would be strange to call the Attempted assassination of Donald Trump something like the Butler Farm Show Grounds shooting.

  In all honesty, I am not sure 2011 Tucson shooting is the greatest title for that article either, it should probably mention Giffords or her event somehow, but that has no relevance to this request. Reliable sources trend towards calling this event the "El Paso Walmart shooting", as I and PARAKANYAA have demonstrated, which is why I proposed it. Macxcxz (talk) 14:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]