Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ancient History (novel)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. -Scottywong| comment _ 17:46, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Ancient History (novel) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)
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Delete due to lack of notability in accordance with WP:NBOOK or WP:GNG, which requires significant coverage in reliable and independent sources. Initially redirected to author was reverted. Cindy(talk to me) 22:08, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:48, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak keep - while I could find a couple of bits and pieces, this one doesn't look to have been as widely considered as Women and Men (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Women and Men). There is a little bit in this book, this book and this book. There is also a Kirkus Reviews entry here - not sure whether this is sufficient (Kirkus is included in the list of journals cited by WP but I can't find a definitive statement about its reliability as a source). I did find a few other blog-style reviews (like this) but not a whole lot else. There might be more but I could only find passing mentions beyond that. Am a bit on then fence but am generally in favour of Keep, so that's what I'll put down. That said, there are no sources currently listed for the article so that would have to be fixed - the original author has completely failed to meet the burden of proof, despite claiming to be a long-term IP editor who has only recently joined WP. The attitude of that editor toward Cindy has been poor (to say the least), given the total lack of effort they have putting into sourcing their long tracts of WP:OR. Cheers, Stalwart111 (talk) 06:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC).[reply]
Article creator here, so you know my vote:
As I said in my response to Cindamuse (on my user talk page, since Cindamuse didn't do the Wikipedia thing of discussing the issue on the article's talk page itself), I was going to be gone until today (Rosh Hashanah). Gone as in 100% gone. My attitude was what she earned: she took extremely drastic, one-way action, not even bothering to tell me her reason for erasing my edits (except in the redirect history "Edit summary" remark that got hidden by the redirect). A boilerplate there "may" be a problem with guidelines is not a reason.
Anyway, it was reviewed in the NYT [1] behind a paywall. I'm not a subscriber--I assume it's acceptable to take the dust jacket quote from that review that shows up in many of the later McElroy novels? I will if people insist. It was the subject of academic analysis in the Review of Contemporary Fiction, special Joseph McElroy number (1990, vol 10, #1, I think). Again, I will give exact citations if people want. (I'm sure these should all make it into the article eventually, and I expect I will do so at some point. I just think it's silly doing so up front, for the reason stated below. I'm also assuming that no one thinks I'm flat-out lying, inventing imaginary sources that I hope no one is ever going to look up.)
I find it puzzling that once an author himself becomes notable enough--say by making it into the Colby World Authors reference work, or by publishing a major highly praised novel like Women and Men--his other novels have to be individually justified. Tell me now, because my intention is to work through all his novels. I agree that the Ship Rock and Preparations for Search chapbooks deserve nothing more than redirects to Women and Men. Indeed, demoting the P4S description as a novel was one of my first edits. I mean, how many reviews did Don DeLillo's first novel get? Nobody knew he was DON DELILLO at the time.
For those unfamiliar with World Authors, each volume covers a five year period, and each author gets several small print large size pages. Half of the article is typically a quoted autobiographical summary, the other half is a condensed summary of his fiction. McElroy appeared in the 1975-1980 volume (before Women and Men was written). I had added this citation to the author's page.
Choor monster (talk) 13:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: your point - "I find it puzzling that once an author himself becomes notable enough--say by making it into the Colby World Authors reference work, or by publishing a major highly praised novel like Women and Men--his other novels have to be individually justified." - unfortunately, that's exactly right. Each subject must be verifiably notable with significant coverage of its own. If it is not sufficiently notable on its own then the details can be included in the article for the author himself. Where a novel has received its own significant coverage, then an article for that novel might be justified. Have a read of WP:N and, specifically, WP:NBOOK. The author does not necessarily inherit notability from his books (his products), nor his books from him. There are exceptions for authors who have received "de-facto coverage" (my words) because of the significance of their work. But that's not really what we're talking about here - he is notable (I don't think that is in question) and we are now dealing with whether some of his individual books are individually notable. Not that WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is a good argument, but there are plenty of authors who have articles who have written a number of books, only one or two of which have been considered individually notable.
- Like I said, I find it puzzling. To me, if a book article can't grow beyond a stub, not reach even an inferior article consisting of lists, is a questionable article. Even one person having that much of an interest counts for something. (I am, of course, excluding self-interested promotion.) My interest is strictly personal--I've been reading him for 30 years--heck, I have no idea even where the accent is in his last name. So, yes, I take it for granted that everyone has at least heard of him as the most famous novelist that no one has ever heard of.Choor monster (talk) 14:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, fair enough. Like I suggested, I think there is enough to justify this one - just have to be careful creating articles for his other less-well-known work. Stalwart111 (talk) 03:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC).[reply]
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Choor monster (talk) 14:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm replying below in "fisking" style to a long paragraph, since it's getting complicated and confusing. The words immediately below are Stalwart111, the one more indentation is Choor monster.
In addition, I find Stalwart's complaint about my "long tracts of OR" completely off-base. (Long??? I've just started with a stub so far.) Summarizing a book is not OR. My statements about the book's content can all be verified in the obvious location. What were you expecting? The Cliff's notes? As I mentioned on the talk page (with an explicit example), I am shying away from sharing my opinions about what's going on in the book. I am also aware that McElroy is a difficult writer, and I can make mistakes, and not notice an ambiguity, say. But such fine detail isn't what Stalwart was complaining about. Choor monster (talk) 16:21, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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- As to whether I will fight the system, I will at some point raise the issue. It seems like an unintended side effect of an obviously important policy, and that has not been addressed since nobody has wikilawyered a plot summary before. I really find the idea that I have to keep reminding readers that my plot summary is based on the book completely nuts.Choor monster (talk) 14:07, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Then cite it or fight it. Easy as. Stalwart111 (talk) 23:44, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I will mostly continue writing good informative articles on Joseph McElroy's novels. It's an embarrassing hole.Choor monster (talk) 13:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- And you should - your continued contributions are welcome. But please understand that this is an encyclopaedia - this is not a place for publishing original ideas or interpretations. Though new editors sometimes baulk at the idea when they finally realise, being an editor on WP is basically a matter of regurgitating what reliable sources have collectively said about something. It can sometimes be frustrating when you "know" something about a subject but can't add it to WP because someone else hasn't said it first. By all means continue to add material, but please also be diligent about adding sources to back it up.
- To allow everyone to move on and get on with editing, I've collapsed the vast majority of our discussion above. I have responded to some points and my aim is not to censor / limit any further responses or arbitrarily end the discussion - please feel free to respond as you see fit; I will see your responses (as will others - it is not hidden). But I will say I think it is obvious that mistakes were made to begin with, those have been resolved, this AfD is unlikely to succeed (given there is not a single delete vote) and everyone should now focus on building the article in question. Cheers, Stalwart111 (talk) 02:23, 26 September 2012 (UTC).[reply]
- Keep: I added the two ny times cites, they are both substantive articles -- clearly treating McElroy as an important author and the book as an important book. (E.g., from Donadio article: "McElroy's third novel compels respect"). Choor asks: "I find it puzzling that once an author himself becomes notable enough--say by making it into the Colby World Authors reference work, or by publishing a major highly praised novel like Women and Men--his other novels have to be individually justified." Yeah, I don't think that's necessarily true. As an encyclopedia, we want our coverage to be logical and organized. If an author has 7 novels and 5 are clearly notable, I guarantee you that articles on the remaining 2 will withstand attempts at deletion. Choor, it is best if you create articles that have citations in them already to stave off deletion nominations. On Cindy's side, I am disturbed that after her prior AfD of Women and Men crashed and burned, she'd just nominate another of Choor's creations. AfD is not supposed to be a game.--Milowent • hasspoken 17:23, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I would remind you to assume good faith. Your assumption here is not accurate in reflecting the facts. Another note, the AFD did not "crash and burn", but served as intended to discuss the merits of the article in order to establish notability. This was successfully done in accordance with the established process. Certainly not a game. Time to check yourself my friend. Cindy(talk to me) 20:01, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Check myself?! OHNOYOUDIDNT!. You had to withdraw the AfD; I do credit you for doing that instead of digging in your heels as unfortunately happens too often.--Milowent • hasspoken 20:13, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- For the record - both were nominated at the same time (I responded to both at almost exactly the same time). It's not accurate to say one failed and the other was subsequently nominated as some form of retaliation. Neither article established (or made any attempt to establish) notability and both were nominated. For one there was a number of reliable sources and once those were highlighted the nomination was withdrawn, as is appropriate. That wasn't necessarily the case with this nomination. The original author contends that sources exist and having had a look myself, I have also found some (though not nearly as many as for Women and Men, I might add). If this AfD results in attention being drawn the article and a number of editors contributing to its betterment, I can only think that is a good thing. Stalwart111 (talk) 23:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Steven Moore, extremely well known literary critic--he has his own Wikipedia article!--specializing in postmodern fiction, starts off his review of Women and Men with the sentence "Joseph McElroy published five remarkable novels between 1966 and 1977". That means all of McElroy's novels in the time span mentioned. I consider any strong positive mere mention by Moore as pretty much a definitive "this book is notable"--this being his area of expertise.
- Down the road, I'm thinking of a Michael Brodsky page, along with some of his novels (Xman, Dyad, ***, We Can Report Them). I believe his novels outdo every other postmodernist in extreme difficulty, so I'll consider your suggestions seriously.
- Choor, I am not really familiar with Michael Brodsky (I'm focused lately on popular U.S. fiction of ~1860-1910, scrumptious lowbrow fare like 1887 sensation, Mr. Barnes of New York), but a quick search tells me Brodsky is notable enough to have his own article. I'd start by creating a good article just on him, where you include a section about his works and their reception. Then, if your time permits, its easier to create separate articles for any novels you think merit expanded treatment.--Milowent • hasspoken 19:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- ^^This^^ is funny ("scrumptious lowbrow fare") More light-heartedness please! Unfortunately, Choor monster, a mere mention by anyone is unlikely to be considered "significant coverage" of a subject to help with meeting WP:GNG. But this and other mentions, other coverage and reviews (in totality) would be considered significant enough. But this is exactly the sort of thing you should be looking for. As an aside, I'm with Milowent - an article on Michael Brodsky sounds like a good idea. Cheers, Stalwart111 (talk) 23:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, maybe we can all kill two birds with one stone here. Milowent could, for example, take an interest in the 1853 (British) novel Hypatia. The article has been a nothing stub for 4 months now--I note that in its history no one has called for references that it's individually notable. As you can guess by my comments, I'm happy with that. Meanwhile, Hypatia gets referred to in McElroy's Ancient History itself, as part of the narrator's classical history education. Part of the work of editing AH will simply to link to good stuff like this, except right now this one isn't so good.Choor monster (talk) 14:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- And on a parallel note, Thomas Pynchon included the Delaware/Maryland/Pennsylvania tri-state area legend of the "ticking tombstone" in his Mason & Dixon. (One particular known tombstone according to locals, inscribed "R.C.") The first written version of this legend is due to Gath, who in his day was as popular as Mark Twain. It's the "Ticking Stone" story in his Tales of the Chesapeake, which was reprinted in 1968 so reasonably priced copies can be found online if you can't get it by ILL.Choor monster (talk) 14:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - the initial change to a redirect, although in accordance with the letter of WP guidelines, was a knee-jerk reaction, so I reverted it. The article has now improved beyond all recognition and the subject is clearly notable. . . Mean as custard (talk) 13:25, 25 September 2012
(UTC)
Summary of main disagreement: Choor monster/Stewart111
editRegarding Cindy's original redirects: nothing she did fit in with WP:R criterion of a redirect. It violated WP:BLANK. It violated WP:PRESERVE. And no, plot summaries are not WP:OR--that is nowhere practiced on WP, and the practice did not begin with Cindy's edit--so the article did not meet WP:CANTFIX. Calling it an instance of WP:SPEEDY is 99% accurate, so I'm sticking to that.
As a further example, check out Great Expectations. The plot summary has several footnotes. They are there for one reason only: to provide a source for the timeline of the novel's action. Nowhere did Dickens tie the plot to dates or at least datable events, so scholarly readers over the years have played detective and published their conclusions. Doing so on WP for the first time in any novel would be OR.
As an example of something I'm not going to do: I am very tempted to summarize Lookout Cartridge, McElroy's postmodern techno-thriller, with the statement that the key to solving the mystery is realizing "the medium is the message". I mean, wow, McElroy channelled McLuhan and blasted one of the best metafiction home runs ever, with a whodunit resolution as clever, totally unexpected, but perfectly logical in the best Agatha Christie tradition. Well, it may be possible to phrase this in a way without violating WP:OR, but at the moment, nothing comes to mind. On the other hand, the relation of McElroy's interminable, labyrinthine, and borderline comprehensible sentences to the plot of Lookout Cartridge has been discussed in the secondary literature--including one interview--so that can go in. (Even this might be a little tricky: McElroy actually said they were borderline "incomprehensible". Phrasing it backwards like that was, arguably, the only humorous thing he's ever written.)
Similarly, Hind's Kidnap is a treasure hunt of a plot, disguised as a mystery. This seems harmless as a factual observation--Hind is sent from point to point, each time waiting for the next clue to materialize, and while waiting, rambles on interminably--but there's no need to debate the matter: McElroy uses the exact phrase "treasure hunt" repeatedly in the novel. Women and Men turns out to be, amongst other things, the world's ultimate shaggy dog story ever, with most of the plots and subplots resolved in one gigantic punchline. Ah, those sentences and paragraphs that just kept going on forever for 1192 pages, why, McElroy was just funning with me in the best dog tradition. I don't see how to put this in the article. And that ending...it essentially says, "and if you thought that was funny, let me start my next joke". Clearly this is a personal interpretation. And yes, I know I can't sneak this into the talk pages, not even my own user page, WP is not a blog.
Meanwhile, I will continue to engage in plot summaries. And I do so knowing that this is both unnatural for a McElroy novel, and that he is often unclear, and I'm not allowed to pass off personal best guesses as to what is going on. That would be OR.
Nowhere have I claimed or implied that my knowledge of truth trumps any WP criteria. I have simply stated that 30 years of reading McElroy and some of the secondary literature means I know for a hard-cold fact that McElroy's novels are individually notable. That information will go in first next time, but frankly, I think it's a little ridiculous that I'm mostly concerned with another Cindy-level tactical nuclear response than a routine AfD tag.
Anyway, this AfD seems to be ready to be declared dead, and you and I have really been misbehaving with all this metadiscussion. Whether I'll pursue the policy pages or not is something I'll consider later.Choor monster (talk) 15:36, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closing admin: No deletion votes aside from nominator. Please do not relist; article has improved during AfD.--Milowent • hasspoken 16:51, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.