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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 146.90.245.55 (talk) at 23:16, 21 January 2014. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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April 8, 2006WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
Article Collaboration and Improvement DriveThis article was on the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive for the week of May 29, 2024.

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List of academic disciplines

Hello,

i would like to request to place a link or list of academic disciplines into the Head of the article. Academic disciplines are essential for the meaning of science and an oversight for them is missing in the article. I would suggest to place a link inside an infobox at the start of the article or a placement where it is easy to recognize. The infobox that is already placed does not give a good overwiev related to a structured list. It should also be placed above the picture. Thank you.

the lead diagram is misleading, incorrect, original research

The graphic is a thesis about the interconnection of various sciences, and implies relationships that are dubious at best and obviously false at worst. This is especially true of the right-hand column of the diagram "hierarchy of science". The arrows "building-up" from logic to mathematics and then to physics are absurd. Does mathematics 'emerge' from logic? NO! The two domains of inquiry are intertwined and no consensus exists as to the relationship between logic, mathematics, predicate calculus, and physical reality. It would be just as deceptive to show mathematics emerging from neuroscience; after all, humans practice mathematics and build machines that can compute mathematical truths.

And to have "physics" constrained to the 'physics of the very-small' (particle physics, QFT, etc.) is really objectionable. Is not "physical cosmology" still physics? What about general relativity? Was Einstein not a physicist? The problems do not end there. Having a size scale on the left of the diagram makes a very controversial point about physical reality, namely that local reductionism is a correct description of the material universe. Quantum non-locality, Bohmian mechanics, universal wave-function interpretations of QM all go in opposition of this thesis.

I thought the collage of scientists was a pretty good lead image, but I wasn't attached to it. Replacing that image with one that is entrenched in very dogmatic conceptions of space, time, emergence, etc. is a huge disservice to readers. By far the most glaring problem, IMO, is that micro-scale physics looks like it emerges from mathematics. Yes, it's very interesting that transistor circuits implementing Boolean algebra can compute numerical solutions to algebraic problems, giving rise to the rich field of computer science, but the relationship between mathematics and the rest of nature is profoundly mysterious. An uninformed reader might see that graphic and conclude that nature is, at its most fundamental, logic of the variety practiced by humans- talk about original research. -140.160.233.152 (talk) 23:57, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think the diagram is supposed to be generic about different fields of science. The scientist collage was good, but science is about topics more than it is about individuals. Individuals play roles, but science it the substance they produce and the article is about that--Ramos1990 (talk) 00:48, 14 October 2013 (UTC).[reply]
The point of the hierarchy is not to say that one topic emerges from another topic, but that the topic beneath is required for understanding of the topic built on top. In other words, physics requires math, but the obverse is not true. There are many conceptions of a hierarchy of science that mirror this one (just Google the topic). As for scale and physics, physics are rules that are in play at a small scale, including relativity. The fact that they play out at a large scale as well is obviously true and physics is called out as foundational for astronomy and cosmology, but it's not like we change to different physical laws when we are studying phenomena at that scale, just as we don't change to different rules for mathematics when modeling large scale behaviors. Gravity may become the dominant physical force at large scales, but nobody has argued that gravity doesn't exist at some smaller scale. With any graphic there are pros and cons, but this one went through a long vetting process. It is certainly a far better conceptual introduction to science than a picture of a bunch of dead white men. I think perhaps this feedback would be more constructive if it focused on specifics with the graphic.--Efbrazil (talk) 20:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Just as we don't change to different rules for mathematics when modeling large scale behaviors"- you're simply mistaken. Many, many equations used in physics are so-called "phenomenological", meaning they are useful in a particular context and not otherwise. e.g. Lagrangian mechanics, the Bloch equations, kinematic equations, drag equations in elementary fluid dynamics, equations for friction, and even Gauss' law, Coulomb's law, the Eikonal approximation, ideal gas laws, I could go on... In fact, new mathematics was needed to go from Kepler's laws of celestial motion to Newtonian. Newton essentially discovered (perhaps independently of Leibniz) calculus. This is all without discussing quantum mechanics. There is a threshold of "quantum decoherence", when the wave function for an object becomes negligibly small we can treat the object according to classical equations. Introducing relativity into sub-atomic physics has been fraught with problems. If you get a chance to study abstract algebra and its application to particle physics, gauge theories, etc. you will come to understand that even algebraic operations familiar to people with secondary education in mathematics are re-conceptualized, re-axiomatized, and brought to bear on physical problems. Now you might cite digital computing as evidence that similar mathematical techniques are used across all sciences, and as I mentioned in my first post, this is an interesting development. Digital computers use recursive numerical methods when they solve math problems. Many very brilliant mathematicians and scientists have spent careers developing numerical algorithms to address problems that are fundamentally not numerical. There are problems in mathematics that aren't strictly numerical, the value of pi is an elementary example, but there are many others. That long-winded point about application of math in different domains of science aside, I don't think an interpretation of the arrows as 'necessary for understanding' is any better than one asserting emergence. In fact, emergence is probably closer to the truth. If we are talking about necessity for understanding, then I think it would be appropriate to have the arrows coming out of biology and neuroscience/psychology. The reason I say this is because a "biological agent" is the only kind of entity we know about that has any need for understanding in the first place, because biological organisms are the only things we know about that have desires, desires to warp material reality to their advantage. I would also argue that all our knowledge of physics does not lead us to the sufficient conditions for life. But I don't want to go one proselytizing. Your graphic is good. It takes an idealistic philosophy of metaphysics (the logic as the base), one with local reductionism, and puts it in a very clear, straightforward, and aesthetic presentation. I don't want to take that away from you. I also share your concern about the racial/cultural bias in the montage of scientists, although there were some women included and some non-europeans. It is true however that 'science' as the term is commonly understood today, was championed (in the 17th-20th centuries) by europeans... well, the chinese were ahead of the game for a long time, but I digress. You are correct that any graphic will have pros and cons. I suppose my pragmatic suggestion would be to remove the arrows and otherwise leave it unchanged, but as the current iteration is the result of a 'long vetting process', I will not belabor the point. I have tried to state my reasons for disliking the arrows, but ultimately I am just one person who believes the very top of an article as important as this, on a resource as important as wikipedia, should avoid presenting controversial hypothesis as fact. Cheers. -67.170.2.67 (talk) 05:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
67, as one of the voices who supported the arrowheads, I feel a responsibility to the other editors to help out. So, what might you think of a compromise? Namely, that we substitute a question mark in place of the directional arrowhead? That might symbolize the difference between "what we know" and "what we think we know". Another proposal might be to interpolate a "?" as a label on top of the connecting lines to symbolize that there is a difference between "hard" and "soft" facts. Another possibility might be to "gray-out" the arrowhead to suggest the connection. __Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 11:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just removing the 2 arrowheads above logic and mathematics would be a vast improvement. It would remove the most contentious implicit statements of the graphic, namely that logic is more fundamental than mathematics and that physics emerges from formal sciences. Best. -67.170.2.67 (talk) 02:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
First, let me say I really appreciate this feedback and how balanced it's been, despite the rather eye popping title of the talk topic. Let me try to justify the connective tissue between logic, mathematics, and physics. Logic is at the base because all of science is based on the fundamental ideas of cause and effect and reasoning. If the world didn't follow deducible rules then science would not exist. Similarly, mathematics is about dealing with quantities of cause and effect and describing how quantities interrelate, like distance and force. This is also reflected in computer science, with the fundamental units being boolean algebra and then building up to numbers and then finally programs, or systems that interact. I understand the frustration with putting physics on top of mathematics on top of logic if you think in terms of emergence. Nobody has found a way to say that physical laws are a natural outgrowth of logic, although some have tried by way of saying quantum noise produces all parallel universes exploring all physical laws and ours being one of the few stable outcomes. Going back to computer science, a programmer is required to take the capabilities of boolean logic and produce mathematical functions and then on top of that program software that does something. Before this turns into a discussion about proving that God exists and is a programmer, let me say the intent of the hierarchy is far more prosaic- it provides teachers with a relatively simple visualization for introducing the breadth and structure of science, beginning with logic and working their way up. It pairs nicely with a flowchart of the scientific method. The problem of arrows is common across hierarchy of science graphics- some point them in the opposite direction for instance (which I personally hate). While I'm clearly attached to this graphic and think it's important to have out there, I would understand if somebody wanted to bump it down in the article and elevate a flowchart graphic of the scientific method.--Efbrazil (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you didn't take the rather coarse topic header personally, I didn't mean to disparage your work. I can tell we are on the same page when you write "Before this turns into a discussion about proving God exists and is a programmer..." Indeed, teleological approaches to the thesis of a fundamentally information-like universe often invoke a 'programmer god'. The simulation argument (SA) is of this persuasion. Frankly, I'm agnostic about whether nature at the most fundamental is material-like or idea-like. Reality involves both, though I'm not a substance dualist. There are serious academics who have produced diagrams not dissimilar to yours: see The central science. That does not mean such a thesis is correct nor widely-enough accepted to warrant the treatment it currently gets in the lead image. There's no reason for me to delve back into the state of affairs in theoretical physics and the philosophy of science. I accept that your position is "far more prosaic". You want people approaching science as novices to understand that practicing science involves logical reasoning. Logical reasoning itself can be considered a scientific endeavor. The thing is, the science of the universe seems intractable with logic alone (see Many-body problem and Transcomputational problem). Something more is needed: the pragmatic problem-solving of life. Quantum fluctuations and the many-world interpretation aside, science is about learning the true patterns of nature, whether you can express that knowledge in numbers or not. It would be shame if students came to think science is synonymous with mechanistic logic, just as it would be a shame for them to think science is only done observe>hypothesize>test>analyze>conclude. It is living, breathing people who propel science forward. The most significant breakthroughs have mostly come from people willing to think in new ways, to turn difficult esoteric problems over in their mind like a child studying an eye-catching stone. Logic is not the heart of science, curiosity and a desire to solve problems is. -67.170.2.67 (talk) 06:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just checked, and actually the scientific method article lacks the obvious flow chart, and like you say the flow chart should include inquisitiveness and curiosity of people as part of the process. If I have time after a project I'm working on I'll look to create something interesting, and maybe that could bump down the lead picture in this article. Regarding science being mechanistic, it depends on your perspective. At present there's nothing to suggest that the human mind is anything other than an information processing machine, just like a computer. Our software and hardware is just better tuned to pattern recognition. So if we're mechanistic then all of science is in mechanistic, and science is maybe about the universe becoming consciously self aware.--Efbrazil (talk) 21:31, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(Indent reset) "...Just like a computer." Let's be precise. Do you mean to suggest that a human brain operates in the same manner as an electronic computer using binary transistors? Humans are more like wolves, or monkeys, or ants, than we are like an iPad (or a Turing-complete implementation of some high-abstraction-level computer program). We are forced to purposely engineer stochastic processes into our digital computer models (e.g. Markov process, Fuzzy logic, etc.), because mathematics must be deterministically repeatable to be useful for us. When scientific problems cannot be addressed with precise, discrete operations alone, people have built up probability theory, have implemented probability theory within the familiar logical systems of arithmetic and algebra. It is these latter systems, the Boolean regime included, to which I refer when I write "mechanistic logic". Using "mechanistic", in reference to, for example "quantum mechanics", is a different use of the word altogether. Scientists are actively working on, and have been modestly successful at, exploiting properties of matter at the quantum scale to build 'quantum computers'. The implementation of quantum computing is at the fringe of theoretical computer science, and we need not go there. In a human brain, quantum mechanics is part of the deal, just as classical physics is also. The hardware and software, to use your analogy, are inseparable. At no scale is that more obvious than the molecular scale of mRNA, peptides, neurotransmitters. Going back to this point: "At present there's nothing to suggest that the human mind is anything other than an information processing machine." You'll find much support (Gazzaniga, Dawkins, Dannett) for the assertion that the BRAIN is an information processing machine. What the MIND is, exactly, is still a matter of much debate. The mind and brain are certainly related: the living, wakeful brain clearly gives rise to the mind, but I'd hesitate to say the mind is a "machine". The information processing capabilities of the brain (you mention pattern recognition, an excellent choice) serve the interests of biological life. We don't think that inanimate matter has any use for information processing, only evolving living matter does. It is still the beating heart of the electrical engineer, and the software designer, that gives rise to the digital computing technology we use today. It is the intrinsic motivation of life that has caused every and all technology, from the simplest hammer to most complicated super-computer. -67.170.2.67 (talk) 15:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the lack of a flowchart in the scientific method article: It is true that scientific method allows work by ordnary humans to be incorporated into the body of science. Ludwik Fleck called this vademecum science, which is the everyday progress that laymen take for granted. What does not show up, and for which a flowchart does not yet exist, is the individual acts of creativity and imagination that are required for the scientific method, and which has not yet been flowchartable. Jacob Bronowski's thesis is that these individual acts of creativity and imagination are identical in kind to the creativity and imagination required for art, as well. So the lacking flowchart needs to denote not only inquistiveness and curiosity, but also creativity and imagination. Might I recommend the works of Antonio Damasio, who writes of the role of self in his description of brain action situated cognition (viz. The Feeling of What Happens). --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 19:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, I have read only a little Damasio, and none of Bronowski's work, and I may now do so. I appreciate your tone (and I am impressed by your contributions to the encyclopedia). I'll share a quote I find compelling and leave it at that: "One who has struck out on his own, either ignoring or challenging the fashions of the day, will not, if he is sober, be certain that everything he has gradually come to believe is true. I am very sober. Yet there is one belief that I have come to hold very firmly. One cannot arrive at a dialectically adequate realism without recognizing that the world's form exists. Logic is but a reflection of the world's form. Hence, one cannot fully articulate one's realism without ontologizing logic." -Gustav Bergmann -67.170.2.67 (talk) 03:17, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't and fail to read all of the text which I hardly understand, but the editors SHOULD NOT overlook that there is WP:FLAT and we show exactly what scientists think about science. That is our blind-spot, scientists look for laws of nature and we only write things that is correct, but Wikipedia is different, the bleeding-edge facts come next and the lead section should be the conventional wisdom(or consensus..) of scientists. There are controversy, philosophy or technical difference, but to say even mathematics and social science being a branch of science (on the lead section) is way too far. The text is fairly accurate, the graph should be removed. -- 14.198.220.253 (talk) 21:13, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you're saying is not conventional wisdom in the graph. Social science is not a branch of science? Formal sciences aren't science?--Efbrazil (talk) 22:05, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The IP needs to read the article and learn something. Science doesn't must mean "natural science" although it is often used (loosely and colloquially) as a short form for it. But we do have political science and library science and these are not misuses of the word, as this article points out. SBHarris 01:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Women in Science

This section needs a lot of work, not only with NPOV, but also with clarification and sentence structure. It reads terribly, it makes a lot of vague assertions (gendered metaphors?), it jumps around randomly, and it just generally feels incoherent. Going to try and poke at it for a bit, but I'll probably need help. Titanium Dragon (talk) 12:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I applaud your efforts but I think we should retain some examples of famous female scientists (e.g., Rosalind Franklin). I believe readers will those informative. danielkueh (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I look at the current version of the Women in Science section, I can't be but feel that this is a rather "sanitized" version. I think it is a major disservice if there are no details on how difficult it was for women to enter science in the past and to lesser extent in the present. Also, science continues to be male-dominated. Saying that it "was" male-dominated is incorrect. danielkueh (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. At least the photo of Vera Rubin is still there. When she finally got up to Palomar in 1965 after being denied access to the telescope for years on the pretext that it had no separate "female restroom" (what it did have was a little unisex room), they took her down to the thing and opened it up with a flourish, and said: "And HERE... is the famous toilet!" I don't want this article to be a rant, but discrimination against women in the sciences has happened. Example: the first scientist to suggest nuclear fission in 1934, was Ida Noddack. She was ignored. Which you wouldn't think would be the case, since she was at the time one of the few living people who had discovered a chemical element (another was Marie Curie, of course). So the NEXT scientist to come up with the idea of neutron induced fission, in 1939, was Lisa Meitner. She wasn't ignored, but also she didn't get a share of the Nobel prize that was given for fission. Which I think she deserved more than Rosalind Franklin, especially considering Meitner's role vs. that of Frisch. SBHarris 03:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

and as Enrico Fermi joked, an architect's sketch for a figure over the doorway to the Institute for Nuclear Science at the University of Chicago probably depicted "a scientist not discovering fission". __Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 13:21, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A joke on himself. Fermi was quite a character. At Los Alamos they tried to interest him in fly fishing and he wanted to use a live grasshopper. They told him no, it specifically was a sport of artificial lures. "I see." says Fermi, "So... it is a battle of wits?" SBHarris 03:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is peer review defining characteristics of science?

There is an (imho) overcategorization on subcategory Category:Peer review of Category:Science, as you can see there is some prior discussion over Talk:scientific method. Peer review *can be* a rhetoric of science, a rhetoric of science is not science itself, that is, not a defining characteristic of science. Peer review can be applied on usual non-scientific literature/product/system..etc. too. --14.198.220.253 (talk) 07:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If no one opposes, then I am going to fix the overcategorization. --14.198.220.253 (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that you didn't actually ask on the talk page of the page you want to edit, I'm not surprised that no-one responded. Further, you failed to mention that the categorization you are now objecting to was a compromise suggested after you kept removing Category:Peer review from Category:Scientific method. Finally, your reference to overcategorization is inapplicable -- Category:Science is a topic category (see Wikipedia:CAT#Category_tree_organization), and Peer review certainly "relates to" Science (as you said, it is part of the rhetoric of science, and a practice commonly done by scientists as part of their work). So, no, someone does oppose. 63.251.123.2 (talk) 18:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome late-comer, if science can't decide its category I don't know which can, you talked a lot about rules without focus on content I hope you are not imagining things!
"and Peer review certainly "relates to" Science"
Oops, looks like there is no link to the policy on my top post. Here, WP:OVERCAT, for the lazy.
"your reference to overcategorization is inapplicable -- Category:Science is a topic category (see Wikipedia:CAT#Category_tree_organization), and Peer review certainly "relates to" Science"
Now that, it looks like you know what overcat is, did you just switch on your ignorance?
"as you said, it is part of the rhetoric of science"
So, peer-review is defining characteristic of science? Is the rhetoric of science defining characteristic of science? --14.198.220.253 (talk) 22:17, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"you are now objecting to was a compromise suggested after you kept removing from ..."
Hey, i didn't admit anything! Are you suggesting me to revert your edit disrupt now? I am fine with that. --14.198.220.253 (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your unusual and confusing habit of repeating (with indention) parts of what you are responding to continues to make it more difficult to respond to you, but that aside, your link to WP:OVERCAT remains inapplicable: "One of the central goals of the categorization system is to categorize articles by their defining characteristics." (bold added by me). We are not discussing the categorization for an article, but the form of a category hierarchy, for which the link I provided applies. 63.251.123.2 (talk) 22:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing habit of repeating? You don't know what quoting is? I am not saying my formatting style is good, but I hope you can be less emotionally charged and please WP:FOC.
"One of the central goals of the categorization system is to categorize articles by their defining characteristics."
So, you insist that peer review is defining characteristic of science? Why don't you explain yourself?
"your link to WP:OVERCAT remains inapplicable"
How could that be, let me quote from you, as you quoted from WP:OVERCAT, "One of the central goals of the categorization system is to categorize articles by their defining characteristics." (bold added by me) --14.198.220.253 (talk) 22:46, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've nominated Portal:Technology for featured candidacy. Comments would be appreciated, at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Technology. — Cirt (talk) 17:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Distinction from philosophy

The note at the top of the main page says that this article "refers to experimental sciences", so the definition of science given in the article should be consistent with this.

The current definition of science given in this article, namely, "a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe" is so broad that it includes the whole of philosophy, which definitely isn't an experimental science. Neither are philosophers called "scientists".

Science is completely different to philosophy, and needs to be clearly distinguished - for the sake of both philosophy and science. Philosophy created the scientific method, but philosophy is not itself science (insofar as we use the word "science" today).

For this reason the opening sentence should specify "empirically testable" rather than just "testable". Mathematical theories, such as string theory, are not science unless they may at some time be empirically testable.

Ksolway (talk) 09:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC) Ksolway[reply]

It's an interesting point; the article places experiment under test (i.e., experiment IS-A test), and test is a comparison between expectation and observation (i.e., between an unknown, but knowable, future state and a known present or past state). There are some forms of philosophy which are nihilistic, but a science tends to be more constructive than nihilism, and rationality (i.e. rational discourse) is a prerequisite for a science.
So, I believe the current definition does not include all philosophy. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 11:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In philosophy a particular philosophy is tested by means of a logical test, and all philosophies are therefore testable in this way.
Therefore the current definition of science used in this article does include all of philosophy, and it is mistaken in doing so.
Any comparison between an expected future state and an observed present state is in fact an *empirical* observation, and for this reason the term "empirical test" should be used in the definition.
Ksolway (talk)Ksolway —Preceding undated comment added 12:39, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So mathematics isn't science?--Hokanomono ✉ 13:45, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If pure mathematics is science then philosophy is also science, since pure mathematics and pure philosophy are on a very similar abstract level. But I've never heard of a philosopher referred to as a scientist, and only rarely have I heard a pure mathematician referred to as a scientist.
Ksolway (talk) 15:04, 27 December 2013 (UTC) Ksolway[reply]
What is the difference between science and natural science then? Are computer science and other formal sciences science? Could it be that the articles science, exact science and natural science should be merged? Alternatively, should this article be changed to reflect the old meaning of science?--Hokanomono ✉ 07:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If we use the old definition of science then the natural and experimental sciences are merely a part of science.
In my view this article should be changed to reflect the old and broad meaning of science.
In this case the statement at the top of the article that the article "particularly refers to experimental sciences" would be wrong. This article should be particularly about the whole of science, and not just the experimental sciences. In other words the "science" referred to in this article would specifically include pure mathematics and philosophy.
Ksolway (talk) 04:57, 6 January 2014 (UTC)Ksolway[reply]
But what about ethics, metaphysics, deontology … ? __Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 12:14, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hierarchy of Science image: Law and Economics subdivisions of Sociology?

I realize this image is probably only supposed to be a rough conceptualization of the sciences, but still it is ridiculous that Law and Economics are basically listed as subdivisions of Sociology. Looking at the right column of the image that is clearly what it is implying, if you look at any of the other boxes they list a Science in bold and clear sub-specialities underneath it (eg. Functional Biology has physiology, medicine and ecology as sub-specialities). The Sociology box lists Law and Economics underneath it. However the implication that Law and Economics are sub-specialities of sociology is highly dubious even in lofty conceptual terms, in actual practice it is ridiculous. The "Science of Institutions" as Durkheim defined it may study Law and Economics but it does not contain them. The Sociology textbook won't tell you the first thing about Law or Economics 101 and uses a different array of methods and completely different models. Economics and Law are both much older than Sociology as organized fields of study. They have their own professional associations, the American Sociological Association does not have an Economics subsection, the Economists have their own professional association (indeed the Economics one precedes its Sociological counterpart by two decades). By contrast, the American Psychological Association does have a subsection dedicated to Social Psychology, because that is a genuine sub-speciality of Psychology.

Law and Economics are also more applied than Sociology, many organizations have positions specifically for Economists such as "Chief Economist", and obviously Law is studied in large part to be of use to practicing lawyers. I am not pointing this out to try to imply that Sociology is somehow inferior, just to note that Law and Economics are completely different subjects to Sociology. I realize correcting this would require completely remaking the image, which is otherwise very good, so don't expect a change overnight. But I just thought it should be noted on the talk page that portraying Law and Economics as sub-specialities of Sociology in the same way as particle physics and thermodynamics are sub-specialities of Physics is a completely misleading categorization. Ultimately it might make more sense to simply have "Social Science" as both a category in the middle "Branches of Science" column and a box in the right "Hierarchy of Science" column (and then include Psychology in it). Not as neat and consistent but definitely more accurate.--146.90.245.55 (talk) 23:16, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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