Talk:S&P Global Ratings: Difference between revisions

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What is the origin of the name of this company? Anyone?

A short bit about the company's origins and that of it's name is now included in the Corporate History section. Further information can be found on S&P's website (follow the "History of Standard & Poor's" external link). Richc80 06:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Any chance of showing some example ratings, or a colour-coded map? The effect they can have might also be good.Larklight (talk) 17:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC) [[Media:Example.ogg,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,RP5Y646TRYHHGK/UIPVKUJ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.131.52.176 (talk) 22:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a customer of the National Australia Bank (NAB) I was not amused that I now have to pay bank fees after the bank lost a lot of money through buying a 'toxic debt', which had carried a AAA rating from S&P. Yes, mistakes do occur, but they never offered an apology or a significant sum for damages. I have therefore contacted the authorities to lay criminal charges for fraud and deception with the intent to profiteering by a third party (the holders of the toxic debt). It is high time, that something is done about the overblown negative influence of rating agencies on the wellbeing of now the global population. 121.209.50.146 (talk) 06:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How does Standard & Poor's profit from publishing their indices? The information is freely available to anyone. I think there ought to be a short paragraph explaining this. I'm curious as to how the indices are profitable, and I'm sure many others are as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.36.45.136 (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• And you see those indexes as reliable? THis is just like people who write Astrology, so i guess they get their money like those. Or are paid by some to increase or lower country ratings... --Pedro (talk) 12:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This France24 Report is largely a criticism http://www.france24.com/en/2010-04-28-Greece-Spain-Portugal-credit-ratings-downgraded (of the type "They weren't accurate on a Sub-prime Mortgage Crisis, why are they reliable now that they downgrade largely European countries?". --212.54.199.46 (talk) 16:19, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed the following sentence from the criticism section:

"As other rating agencies, Standard and Poor's actions are a new form of financial terrorism, and its ratings are directed by hidden financial and political interests, and less based on actual financial data, ruthlessly manipulating the markets for their own benefit, or the benefit of others."

Someone who is interested in doing so should reword it so that it isn't stated as an absolute fact and is given proper sourcing. Troodon311 (talk) 15:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Terrorism" is a term that requires actual violence. Adding modifiers to it leads to inappropriate conclusions. It is perfectly fine to describe S and P's activities as containing a sinister aspect ... "either cut your expenditures and increase tax revenues OR ...," but "terrorism" is not appropriate. Perhaps a section on "Nation-States and the S and P" would be appropriate. There is a problem in terms of the institution's relationship with democratically elected governments and trying to whitewash it away due to the use of inappropriate language is not viable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.161.135.71 (talk) 23:22, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The map shows korea in Gray which means "not rated or below B", but Korea has the foreign Rating of A,

Korea (Republic of) A+ A AA-

Link to S&P's list: http://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/sovereigns/ratings-list/en/us/?subSectorCode=&start=50&range=50 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.254.174.168 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the map. It shows the U.S. as AA, while the cited source gives AAA. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:30, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Map is correct. US is now AA+, not AAA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.35.169 (talk) 03:48, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The source for the map says AAA.[1] If the map is using another source, it needs to cite that source. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:12, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

the Map is not correct not all countries are correctly colored : e.g: lebanon has a B rating from all agancies ...--Jadraad (talk) 18:21, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That separate source was previously given only in the image main page in Commons, but I've reinserted it now with that separate reference included here as well. Mikael Häggström (talk) 06:17, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And what about the Korea concern? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The U.S. has a AAA credit credit rating with Moody and Fitch. It is only Standard and Poors that has the AA rating. The U.S. Credit rating is AAA and AA would be not correct at this time.

Should the article mention that Standard & Poor is under a criminal investigation in Italy ?

• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8682558/SandPs-and-Moodys-face-Italian-raids.html
• http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/04/police-raid-milan-moodys-standard-poors
• http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/82699,business,italy-raids-moodys-and-standard-and-poors — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rps (talk • contribs) 15:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes.TANSTAAFL (talk) 16:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the claim that S&P had not rated these banks. Kaupthing's own website says that they did, and this press release says that they took a bright view of Landsbanki. The claim might have been based on this UK Treasury memorandum, but the Treasury were only talking about the banks' UK subsidiaries. --Heron (talk) 16:35, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Various editors are attempting to impute a partisan motivation to the credit downgrade by selectively citing the political donations of Harold McGraw, CEO of S&P's parent company, without citing any actual reliable sources. This is clearly in violation of multiple WP policies, including WP:BLP, WP:RS to name but two. There is practically no way to maintain NPOV in this article if we start using political contributions as a proxy for assumed political bias in the credit decision process. Ronnotel (talk) 17:52, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The material is sourced to the FEC website where Harold McGraw's contributions are listed. As well, it sounds to me like you're projecting "assumed political bias" into the inclusion of provable facts. 71.175.53.120 (talk) 18:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:RS - use of primary sources, such as the FEC political donors directory, is not adequate for supporting controversial assertions, particularly when the information concerns biographies of living persons. We need rigorously researched articles from top quality sources for this type of content. Ronnotel (talk) 19:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason we do this is because, presumably, a balanced, neutrally written journal article would note the contribution histories of all executives - for instance, the President of S&P donates (nearly) exclusively to Democrats - and if there is any such lopsideness, whether there is any reason to believe it had an impact on the credit decision. Simply scanning the list of contributions for an executive that contributed to one side or the other is not objective and not NPOV. Ronnotel (talk) 19:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no controversial assertion here. You're fabricating that. Also the WP:RS has no prohibition against using the FEC as a source. It's not even mentioned. You repeatedly delete the material even though other people restore it. You're obviously pushing a POV here by using loaded terms like "controversial assertion" and your user page shows this is not the first time you've engaged in an edit war like this. Edit wars like you're conducting violate Wikipedia policy. 64.38.198.60 (talk) 20:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's well established WP policy (WP:BLPPRIMARY) that controversial material must be supported by reliable sourcing, even more so when the subject is a living person. In fact, WP:BLP requires that any such material is aggressively removed until it can be supported by strong sourcing. The fact that no such sourcing has been provided should be taken as a sign that the underlying assertion is not encyclopedic and there must not be included. Please restrict your comments to the content, and not the contributor. Review the relevant policies I have cited - they are there for a reason. Material that fails to meet these policies will be removed. Ronnotel (talk) 21:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great job at showing bias. You continuously engage in edit warring then protect your own pages as an administrator. You're a good example of why Wiki is going in the toilet. 208.83.63.222 (talk) 23:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly at present, the addition of this material violates two tenets of Wikipedia. First, the conclusions drawn, either explicitly or implicitly, must be supported by "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (See WP:Identifying reliable sources) While the Federal Election Commission data is considered to be reliable, it is not a third-party analysis of the conclusion inferred in the content which is being added to the article. Therefore, it cannot be added as written. ADDITIONALLY, when content is added, and then is challenged by another editor, the appropriate procedure is to seek WP:CONSENSUS. "When there is a more serious dispute over an edit, the consensus process becomes more explicit. Editors open a section on the talk page and try to work out the dispute through discussion." This was not done. Simply stating "this is my opinion, so I'm changing it" is not consensus. If there is a BLP concern, or a challenge to material, the preferred process is to withhold the addition until a new consensus can be achieved. -- Avanu (talk) 23:49, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your analysis is flawed because you're incorrectly assuming there was a "conclusion inferred" and incorrectly assuming there were "conclusions drawn, either explicitly or implicitly." The material in question are facts, just like someone's date of birth is a fact or the recorded temperature on a certain day in a certain place is a fact. McGraw's donations to the Republican Party and Republican candidates are irrefutable facts verified by the definitive source on the subject, which is the Federal Election Commission. Unless you have some source that the FEC website was hacked and incorrect information inserted about McGraw, your objection is irrelevant. Further, couching this as an issue germaine to the "biographies of living persons" policy is a ludicrous overreach. There is nothing defamatory about stating verified facts. As well, your admonition about consensus should be directed at the user who originally kept removing this material. He/she made no attempt to seek a consensus when, in fact, several editors supported inclusion of the material in question. 64.38.197.209 (talk) 02:22, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The material being added was placed in a section called "Criticism". Please provide a source for how this material is 'critical' of Harold W. McGraw or Standard & Poor's. If FEC merely reports 'facts' as you say, then how do we come to the conclusion this is a 'criticism'? -- Avanu (talk) 02:35, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your POV and bias are demonstratable. You keep saying "no sourcing has been provided." Sourcing has been provided -- the Federal Election Commission. The fact that you say something wasn't provided, when in fact it was provided, demonstrates how you are distorting and shading the facts to suit your purpose. Instead of saying "the source wasn't sufficient," you distorted the facts by saying no source was provided. You're saying something doesn't exist, when it does exist, in order to push your POV. As well, you once again try to distort the real issue here by saying "restrict your comments to the content, and not the contributor." You are the issue. You are biased. Your bias is relevant. You're trying to distort the facts and then misapplying Wikipedia policy as your rationale. Primary sources are allowable. The Federal Electon Commission is the definitive source as a matter of law. It's not somebody's blog. All Harold McGraw's donations to Republican candidates and the Republican party are spelled out in detail, with date of donation and amount given, on the Federal Elections Commission website. You are trying to hide facts with a distortion of Wikipedia policy as a rationale for your bias. Further, you are mischaracterizing the contributions of editors by subjective conclusions as to why they may edits; for example, you state "editors are attempting to impute a partisan motivation." You have no way of knowing that. You are therefore making assumptions without evidence, then concluding your assumptions are factual. That again demonstrates your bias. You have lept to a conclusion based on subjective guesstimations and then are selectively looking for a rationale to buttress your bias. 64.38.197.209 (talk) 02:07, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You assert that primary sources are allowable. However, the policies I read, such as WP:BLPPRIMARY, specifically warn against using primary sources to support assertions, particularly about living people. Instead, they encourage the use of reliable secondary sources, which makes it easier to avoid engaging in original research, which is also prohibited by policy. You feel strongly that Mr. McGraw's history of political activity is an important aspect worthy of mentioning in this page. However, please understand that it may not seem as important to others. In order to be persuasive, you need to show evidence your concerns have been considered relevant by sources that everyone can agree on as unbiased. In other words, you need reliable sourcing, which means more than just looking up some random facts in an Internet database. You need bylined articles from respected publictions that have a history of thoroughly researching and editing topics, particularly when they are controversial. You would also need to show how citing such an article is relevant to a page describing S&P. These rules and policies are commonly enforced across all WP and protect the pages of people you may or may not disagree with poltically. You'll be a more effective editor if you become more familiar with them. Ronnotel (talk) 02:54, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]