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Created the template. This can be included in the right-hand top corner of articles relating to Hindu philosophy. Babub 10:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

we already have a sidebar.--D-Boy 08:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed Yogananda. It's going a bit far to pick him out as a notable modern Hindu philosopher. Would like to see the reliable 3rd party source that does so. --Simon D M (talk) 15:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've added him back. He is prominently and frequently mentioned in many books on modern Hinduism. Here are a few more academic books and articles that mention him specifically in the context of Hindu philosophy:

• Dell, David (1981). Guide to Hindu Religion, Asian Philosophies and Religions Resources Guide Series. Boston: G.K. Hall and Company. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• McDermott, Robert A. (April, 1975). "Indian Spirituality in the West: A Bibliographical Mapping". Philosophy East and West. 25 (2). The University Press of Hawaii. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
• Thomas, Wendell (1930). Hinduism Invades America. The Beacon Press. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help), entire chapter dedicated to Yogananda.

Keep in mind that he is listed under 'Modern' on the template. Many of the others in that list are far less notable, and would likely not have references at all, though I would tend to be inclusionist in that regard. Cheers, ~ priyanath talk 23:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No surprise that Hinduism invades America has a chapter on Yogananda, but it doesn't make him a significant philosopher. Maybe you should provide a quote from a reliable source (ie not Swami Kriyananda etc) that he is. I take your point about some of the others having little right to the position, maybe you're right. I note that none of the modern 'philosophers' listed even feature in the Hindu philosophy article. I disagree that we should be inclusionist, that's an invitation to spammers to promote their chosen guru. --Simon D M (talk) 16:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt that there is a reliable source with a 'list of Hindu Philosphers'. It's also likely that only a few, if any of those listed in the template, are labeled 'Hindu philosphers' by reliable academic sources. So this template will always be somewhat arbitrary. The first two references above are academic sources that include Yogananda and his work in discussions of Hindu philosophy - which likely puts him above 90% of those on the template. The third puts him on par with Swami Vivekananda and Vivekananda's influence in spreading Hindu philosophy and religion to the West. The proper place for this discussion, if you want to carry it further, would be on the WikiProject Hinduism notice board. Cheers, ~ priyanath talk 17:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indian Philosophy: An Introduction to Hindu and Buddhist Thought By Richard King ISBN 0748609547 has no mention of Yogananda but Gandhi, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Ramana and Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan are all mentioned. No mention of Satyananda, Prabhupada, Anandamurti, Chinmayananda, Ayya Vaikundar, Pandurang Shastri Athavale, Nitya Chaitanya Yati, Nataraja Guru or Narayana Guru.

Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies (1983) By Karl H. Potter ISBN 8120803086 (6483 pages) has 10,000 citations. Yogananda's ideas clearly receive little attention but there is significant attention to Gandhi, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Ramana and Radhakrishnan. I think it's pretty clear that the list has serious omissions and what there is can be divided into serious contenders and spam. While only one of Yogananda's works is referenced at all, many of Sivananda's are, 4 of Satyananda's are, 2 of Chinmayananda's, 1 for Nitya Chaitanya Yati, 1 for Nataraja Guru. No mention for Pabhupada, Anandamurti, Ayya Vaikundar, Pandurang Shastri Athavale and Narayana Guru.

This is enough for now, I'm going to rewrite the template based on who is getting attention in authoratitive works on philosphy. --Simon D M (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How notable is Nisargadatta Maharaj??--Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not. Wikidās ॐ 14:16, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which of the two notable Prabhupadas is intended to be linked to? --R'n'B (call me Russ) 16:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't topics like the Hindu calendar also be included in an independent section in the template? Unless they are already included a different (perhaps even more relevant) template. If so, can anyone point me to it? --MK 12:43, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, found it. It's template:Hinduism

The template is too large and taking lots of space in one side of articles, use collapse option! --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 10:32, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone planning to use collapsible boxes in the template? The template is already too large and taking lots of space! --Tito Dutta ^Message 01:54, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is anyone going to do this work (or at least respond)? Or I'll give a try? --Tito Dutta ✉ 14:37, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone? --Tito Dutta ✉ 03:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No one? OK, I have tried to do it in this edit --Tito Dutta ✉ 04:05, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These are certainly not part of Hinduism. Wiki will lose all credibility as an impartial source of info if this template continues as it is. Can someone please remove these? I tried doing that and messed up. This template needs careful editing. Samkhya and Yoga can be classed as Nastika (meaning they do not believe in a supernatural god). The only reason for them to be classed as Astika (orthodox) is because of the widely held belief that they hold Vedas as an authority. "Recent" scholarship on this suggests (see Mikel Burley's book on Samkhya and Yoga philosophy) that one cannot make such a straightforward claim--the book clearly suggests that Samkhya and Yoga are more nastika than astika. To be very clear Vedanta schools are the only astika schools, the rest veer towards being nastika. Also, what is Sikhism doing here? Under "Other philosophies and religions related to Hinduism" one can add all the world's religions - Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Islam - and all western schools of philosophy. This section does not make any sense. -Mohanbhan (talk) 15:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Jainism,Buddhism and Sikhism are other Indian phioloshophies apart from Hindu philosophy" @Conradjagan: could you please explain what you mean by this? Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism are three separate religions and have their own sidebars on wiki. Why are you calling these religions other Indian "philosophies"? -Mohanbhan (talk) 10:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: Here are two reliable sources that include Carvaka, Ajivika, Buddhism and Jainism as Indian Philosophies: (1) Basant Pradhan (2014), Yoga and Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy, Springer Academic, ISBN 978-3319091044, page 10; (2) David Jones (2010), Asian Texts - Asian Contexts, State University of New York Press, ISBN 978-1438426754, pages 78-79. These sources mention the link of the first two to Hinduism. You mention Mikel Burley, but on pages 2-3, he calls Buddhism and Jainism as Nastika/Heterodox philosophies and explains their relationship to Hindu philosophy (Mikel Burley (2006), Classical Samkhya and Yoga: An Indian Metaphysics of Experience, Routledge, ISBN 978-0415394482). So these should be included in this template. Do you have reliable sources that support excluding Ajivika, Buddhism and Jainism from this template? Unless you present reliable sources, I intend to add Ajivika, Buddhism and Jainism back. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Ms Sarah Welch: I never said anything about them not being Indian philosophies, my concern is about them being classed as Hindu philosophy. They are not "Hindu" philosophy in any sense, which is what this template is called. Yes, Burley or any other scholar would call Buddhism and Jainism heterodox because they are opposed to what is called as "Hinduism" today. I do not understand your overzealous attitude considering there are separate sidebars for Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism. -Mohanbhan (talk) 04:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, why should a template on Hindu philosophy have a section called "Related Indian philosophies"? Hindu philosophy is a subsection of Indian philosophies, and not the other way round. -Mohanbhan (talk) 04:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: Because there are Indian philosophies related to Hindu philosophies (see sources above), and wikipedia templates are meant as information links. Thanks for clarifying. I will change the template. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are getting into a meaningless editwar Sarah Welch, you have no consensus to change the template. Can you pls re-read what I have written before jumping the gun? Hindu philosophies can be part of Indian philosophy template and not the other way round. Discuss here, provide reliable sources (what you have provided as RS says B and J are Indian philosophies, not part of Hindu philosophy) and get the consensus before you make any change. -Mohanbhan (talk) 09:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: You have already agreed Buddhism and Jainism are Indian philosophies, and they are related to Hindu philosophy. I do not understand you: are you suggesting there is no information value in adding links to "Related Indian Philosophies" within this encyclopedic template?

I ping @Joshua Jonathan: for a second opinion, a veteran editor on Buddhism and Hinduism pages. @JJ: this template, created long ago by someone, has had consensus links to Buddhism, Jainism in it. Mohanbhan recently deleted those, and now demands a new consensus. What are your thoughts: are encyclopedic links to Buddhism and Jainism under "Related Indian philosophies" of information value? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: Ajivikas should be in the Nastika group of this template. Reliable source: P.T. Raju (1985), Structural Depths of Indian Thought, State University of New York Press, ISBN 978-0887061394, page 147. Do you have a reliable source that it shouldn't be? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is what Raju (1985) says on p.147: "There were sects other than Buddhism and Jainism, which rejected the authoritativeness of the Vedic scripture. The Ajivikas*,3 along with whom the orthodox schools clubbed the Jainas and the Buddhists, also rejected the Vedas. The Carvakas* also did the same thing. If the Ajivikas* and the Carvakas* can be Hindus, there is every justification to call Jainism and Buddhism forms of Hinduism. As mentioned already, the word Hinduism has no definite meaning and, we may even say, does not mean a thing." Is he saying that Buddhism, Jainism and Ajivika are part of Hinduism? Stop bamboozling the community Sarah Welch. -Mohanbhan (talk) 10:33, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objection whatsoever to including Jainism and Hinduism in this template. Who cares if they are not "strictly" Hindu? I don't, most Hindus probably don't, and most Buddhists probably also don't. How about an RfC? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:58, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and Raju is saying that, if the Ajivikas and the Carvakas can be Hindus, Jainism and Buddhism can also be called forms of Hinduism. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But Ajivikas and Carvakas can't be called Hindus, that is the point. Yes, please do an RfC but remember you need reliable sources to back your outlandish claims. -Mohanbhan (talk) 11:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You have no objection to including Jainism and "Hinduism"? Hahaha! -Mohanbhan (talk) 11:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, you're right; no, I don't object to including "Hinduism." Might be informative here ;) And I also don't object to including Jainism and Buddhism under a heading "Related Indian philosophies"; that's certainly informative. Though I also have to note that they are included in Template:Indian philosophy, a bottom-of-the-page template; that may be sufficient also. @Kautilya3, Ogress, and VictoriaGrayson: what do you think? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: The Carvakas article already has multiple reliable sources with embedded quotes on it being called a heterodox school of Hindu philosophy. On Ajivika (sources above),

P.T. Raju Book's Quote: "If the Ajivikas and the Carvakas can be Hindus, there is every justification to call Jainism and Buddhism forms of Hinduism." (page 147)

Basant Pradhan Book's Quote: "Hindu philosophies that do not recognize the authority of the Vedas include Carvakas, Ajivikas". (page 10, the book quotes Robinson et al. - tertiary source)

@Joshua Jonathan: The links in this template before @Mohanbhan deleted Ajivika, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism were,

Astika: Samkhya Yoga Nyaya Vaisheshika Mīmāṃsā Vedanta

Nastika: Carvaka Ajivika

Other Indian Philosophies: Buddhism Jainism Sikhism

This template is just a convenient collection of links, so someone who visits a page, such as Nyaya or Carvaka can jump to Buddhism or Jainism or Ajivika page, if he or she wants. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 11:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree; no big deal involved there. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: Here is another source: Mel Thompson, Eastern Philosophy, ISBN 978-0844215877, page 182, Quote: "(...) he became associated with Gosala, the founder of the Ajivikas (another heterodox Hindu sect)". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Welch, I suppose you understand the meaning of the conditional "if". Since Ajivikas and Carvakas can't be Hindus, Jainism and Buddhism can't be called forms of Hinduism. Pradhan who you call a tertiary source is not WP:RS, the book is about "Yoga and Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy" which most cognitive therapists would classify as New Age woo. If you want to make this template a "convenient collection of links" then change it to Indian philosophy and remove the aum logo; then you can add separate sections of Buddhist philosophies, Jain philosophies etc. And the casual asides thrown by non-experts like Mel Thompson don't count as RS. This relentless POV pushing without reliable sources is a waste of time. -Mohanbhan (talk) 12:16, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: Cognitive therapy is a part of psychiatry, and has attracted serious scholarship for decades. See: Keith Hawton et al. (Editors, 1989), Cognitive behaviour therapy for psychiatric problems: A practical guide, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0192615879. I respect your right to believe Yoga / Cognitive Therapy as "New Age woo" or whatever you want, but we must rely on RS, and Pradhan's book published by State University of New York Press is an RS.

Another Source that classifies Hindu philosophy into Astika and Nastika schools as this template did, before recent edits by @Mohanbhan: John Grimes (2004), in The Hindu World (editors: Mittal and Thursby), Routledge, ISBN 0-415215277, page 541. John Grimes is a professor at University of Michigan.

@Joshua Jonathan: I have no particular preference whether this template is named Hindu Philosophy or Indian Philosophy. I see no issues with the current name. Clearly, @Mohanbhan is upset with the current name. I will go with the consensus established by you and others. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:29, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Welch: Did I say anything about cognitive therapy? I told you yoga and mindfulness are subjects that cognitive therapists see as woo. We are discussing religions here and cannot treat a book on yoga and mindfulness in cognitive therapy as reliable source. Also, when you quote a book as supporting your view please also quote the paragraph and show how the paragraph supports your view. You have lost the trust of the community by naming texts which clearly don't support the POV you are trying to push. My very first comment here talks about the distinction between Astika and Nastika schools, and I suggested - citing Burley - listing Samkhya and Yoga as Nastika and the rest of the schools as Astika. But since you are insisting on listing separate religions as part of Nastika school you will have to come up with RS which say these religions are part of Hindu philosophy. And you will have to do this by citing the relevant paragraph/s. -Mohanbhan (talk) 17:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: the only one who's loosing "the trust of the community" is you. Be sure that your tone and polemics are not appreciated by "the community." But that's something you probably already know. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The community will judge that Joshua, please do not presume that you are the "community". My sounding a little exasperated ("my tone") is not the issue, the issue is relentless and unfair POV pushing without reliable sources to list separate religions as part of Hindu philosophy. I am sure this predatory attitude is not appreciated on WP. -Mohanbhan (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mohanbhan might be, uh, a bold editor, but I've been chewing over this issue because Nastika includes non-Hindu religions by nearly everyone's perspective (i.e. Buddhism and Jainism) and some that people argue over (Carvaka, Ajivaka) and some that nobody claims is Hindu (Sikhism). This is explicity a sidebar on Hindu philosophy, not Indian philosophy, and I'm not sure we can justify using the internal "orthodox v. heretic" tools here at all. It's just forcing a super awkward situation where we're arguing. I personally think that this sidebar should probably not have the Nastika category, and if we want to argue over whether Carvaka/Ajivika go here, that's a different situation than deliberately including Buddhism and Jainism, especially since Buddhism, at minimum, has a multitude of philosophies, some living and some defunct. Are we going to pretend it's a monolith, or are we going to include them, which would take up a ton of space? I don't know but it increasingly seems clear that we should either 1. rename the navbar (which seems inappropriate given there's a footer already) 2. remove non-Hindu topics. Thoughts? Ogress _smash! 20:17, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: The template header reads, "Part of a series on Hindu philosophy". A sub-section titled, "Related Indian philosophies" with Buddhism in it, just is a convenient link to reach the wiki page on related Indian philosophy named Buddhism, nothing more.

Ajivikas is an Indian philosophy about which research has been limited, and RS are few. Arthur Basham's classic History and Doctrines of the Ajivikas, a Vanished Indian Religion, ISBN 8-120812042 is the most well known RS on Ajivikas. Lets take a closer look.

Page 47: Vaishnavite tendencies are to be found in Ajivika doctrine at a much later date, and Ajivikas are by commentator explicitly identified with ekadandins, or Vaishnava ascetics. – AL Basham

Page 149 (discussion of Ashoka pillar inscriptions on Ajivikas): "likewise I have arranged it that they will be occupied with the Brahmanical Ajivikas. Following Kern, he [Buehler] expresses his belief that the Ajivikas were Vaishnavas. They theory of Kern and Buehler has been attacked by Hoernle and Bhandarkar, and few would now accept it. (...) But, even granting all these provisos, there may be a modicum of truth in the old theory of Kern and Buehler. A close connection between the Brahmana and the Ajivika is indicated by Ashoka's classification of the sects." – AL Basham

Page 170: "This remarkable passage was noted by Kern, who inferred from it that Ajivikas were orthodox Vaishnava ascetics. His view was supported by Buhler. This passage was studied by Hoernle, who commented on it fully. Bhattotpala states that the Ekadandins or Ajivikas are devotees of Narayana, that is Vishnu. On the other hand Silanka, speaking of the Ekadandins in another connection, declares them to be devotees of Shiva. It is clear that what these two commentators had in their mind was the class of ascetics who are still known as Dandins... These ascetics are usually classed as belonging to the Saivite division of Hindus: but they are rather eclectics in that they invoke not only Shiva but also Vishnu as Narayana." – AL Basham

AL Basham in the above book, and his later publications explains the fog, the confusion about the Ajivikas. He also elaborated the evolution in Ajivika beliefs over many centuries (particularly in south India), and this evolution was usually towards an unusual hybrid of heterodoxy and Hindu philosophy. Basham's 1989 book published by Oxford University Press classified Ajivikas as a heterodox Hindu philosophy if I remember correctly, but I do not have access to the book right now and so cannot provide a page number.

Where do we go from here? As both Joshua Jonathan and I have said, this is just a template of convenient links, and there is "no big deal involved." I have no particular preference whether this template is called "part of a series on Hindu philosophy", or "part of a series on Indian philosophy". If the latter template name was chosen, not that it would be the final outcome of this discussion, what layout do you propose and what other changes would you like in this template. Would you keep the Acharyas sub-section etc? @Ogress: how would you redesign this, to make it more encyclopedically useful? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarah Welch, as mentioned by @Joshua Jonathan: and @Ogress: above since there is already an exhaustive Indian philosophy footer I don't think changing the header of this sidebar to Indian philosophy or redesigning it makes any sense.

The Ajivikas in some cases may have been Vaishnavites but that does not make them "Hindus". For example, the Veerashaivas (Sharanas)and Lingayats are Shaivities, they worship an incarnation of the Hindu god Shiva, but their philosophy Shatsthala Siddhanta is so anti Hindu orthodoxy that it is not considered part of Hinduism (and they have a separate sidebar on wiki.) The same can be said of Buddhism, Jainism, Ajivika and Carvaka -- the Buddhists and Carvakas were so hated by Hindu orthodoxy that they were called Mahapatakis (great disaster-wreckers). So it is unfair and ahistorical to list these religions/philosophies as part of Hindu philosophy.

But if you want a template which you want to use as a collection of links to Indian philosophies then you already have the Indian philosophy footer; you can improve it and make it "encyclopedically useful." -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Let me note again that I don't mind including Jainism and Buddhism into the template; I always found it curious, yet sympathetic, that those inks were there. But The footer may suffice, though. And I guess that most readers will find their way to Buddhism and Jainism; those are not really obscure topics.

I have no thoughts on the Ajivikas. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:46, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, I'm mostly chewing on this. I hate to reduce the amount of information we provide, and yet I think Hinduism is not a good fit. There's a reason basic sourcebooks are usually titled "An Introduction Indian Philosophy" if they include nastika stuff. Perhaps we could just include āstika and nāstika on the sidebar? The link, I mean, not the categories like before. I know it's informational, but it's super distasteful to stick Sikhism and Jainism in particular into Hinduism, they get enough faeces as it stands and I think simply adding Buddhism is inaccurate. Those should have gone to better pages than just Buddhism anyway - Buddhist philosophy is more on point, but still. Ogress _smash! 04:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan: The footer suffices, technically. In practice though, I like the template at the top or early in the article, because I don't want to scroll to the bottom for links. I have used these template links many times on devices that partially load a wiki page.

@Ogress: The Sikhism addition to this template was very recent by someone new, presumably in good faith, who may not consider "nastika = atheism" and may consider "nastika = non-Vedic". Or, it could be just someone testing their "anyone can edit" privilege.

What do you all think of the following change, till I get hold of hardcopy version of the 1989 Basham or someone else provides a more "persuasive to Mohanbhan" RS for Ajivikas?:

Astika: Samkhya Yoga Nyaya Vaisheshika Mīmāṃsā Vedanta

Nastika: Carvaka

Related Indian philosophies: Ajivika Buddhism Jainism

Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:29, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Totally fine with me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Welch your grievance, "I like the template at the top or early in the article, because I don't want to scroll to the bottom for links" is not strong enough for you to make these changes. This is easily one of the most hilarious reasons I have seen cited on wiki. Brother Joshua when you say something is fine with you, you will have to specify why it is fine with you. Contrary to what you think this is indeed a "big deal." We are not taking a decision on family vacation you know; this is a wikipedia template and concerns millions of people of various faiths. -Mohanbhan (talk) 15:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"one of the most hilarious reasons I have seen cited on wiki"? You ain't seen nothing yet...<br.

Brother Mohanbhan, could you please try to discuss in a decent way, like normal people do? I don't know what you're used to, but we expect to be treated like normal, mature people. Thanks. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:46, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, normal mature behaviour is what I expect of you too, that's why I pointed out the immature and extremely casual remarks made above. -Mohanbhan (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'll show what "normal mature behaviour" is:

"Sarah Welch your grievance comment, "I like the template at the top or early in the article, because I don't want to scroll to the bottom for links" is not strong enough for you to make these changes. This is easily one of the most hilarious reasons I have seen cited on wiki. Brother Joshua when you say something is fine with you, you will have to could you specify why it is fine with you. Contrary to what you think this is indeed a "big deal." We are not taking a decision on family vacation you know; this is a wikipedia template and concerns millions of people of various faiths. It means a lot to me personally."

I figure you get the point. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Now that you have suitably rephrased the question would you now be kind enough to answer it? Why do you think it is perfectly OK to add separate religions in a Hindu philosophy template? Also, could you pls cite reliable sources which say they are part of Hinduism? -Mohanbhan (talk) 17:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Also, please do not be blind to your cavalier attitude by resorting to this entirely unnecessary and unwarranted rephrasing. It is not that "this means a lot to me personally" -- this is what is called putting words in the mouth btw -- it is that it doesn't mean anything to you and so you think it is OK to make irresponsible comments. Fairness and sincerity elicits a certain tone, POV pushing and gaming the system elicits a different tone. It is important to look at one's own behaviour before taking it upon oneself to correct another's tone. I hope YOU get the point. -Mohanbhan (talk) 17:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Presearch: could you explain to our friend why it might be warranted to include Buddhism and Jainism? As for myself: no, they are not Hinduism, and nobody is saying that they are. What we are saying is that they are relevant to Hindu-philosophy. See Geoffrey samuel, The Origins of Yoga and Tantra, for an overview of their shared origins. See also Advaita Vedanta, for the influence of Madhyamaka philosophy on Advaita Vedanta; and Patanjali's Yoga Sutra's, which are unthinkable without Buddhist meditation.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; we try to provide useful information. Addig those two links provides extra information. So, your turn: why is it so important for you? To add a personal note: I've been studying Buddhism and Hinduism for over 25 years now; studying them in combination has helped me to understand both of them better, since they are so closely related. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am not in the habit of repeating myself. I am made it perfectly clear why I do not want separate religions to be added to a Hindu philosophy template. If you say they are "relevant" to Hindu philosophy you will have to explain what you mean by "relevance" and if relevance means "a relation demanding inclusion as part of Hindu philosophy" then you will have to establish that relevance with reliable sources. You are saying that the origins of "Hinduism" and Buddhism are "shared" in Yoga and Tantra, that Advaita Vedanta is influenced by Buddhist philosophy, that Patanjali's yoga sutras are influenced by Buddhist meditation. Let us examine these propositions. 1. Yes, Samkhya and Yoga schools owe a lot to Tantra, yet who gives a damn about Tantra in Hinduism? In this very template it appears at the very bottom of the subhead 'Texts' as the penultimate text and is classed as Other Scriptures. Let us get one thing straight: the Vedas are central to Hindu philosophy; even today the Vedas are the only texts considered infalliable by Hindus. So all Astika philosophies -- those which accept the infallibale authority of the Vedas -- are part of Hindu philosophy. But early Sankhya, early Mimamsa and early Yoga do not accept the authority of the Vedas. (This is not original research, Burley and many other scholars hold this opinion.) That's why I suggested that they be classed as Nastika philosophy. Since Vedas are central to Hinduism, anything that is absolutely antagonistic to the Vedas, like Buddhism, Jainism, Carvaka and Ajivika, cannot be considered as part of Hinduism or as schools of Hindu philosophy. 2. Yes, it is widely known that Advaita Vedanta is influenced by Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka philosophy but why would that make you add Madhyamaka philosophy under Hindu philosophy? You should rather be adding Advaita Vedanta or Hinduism under Buddhist philosophy. Why don't you try adding Advaita Vedanta to Template:Buddhism by creating a subhead titled "Other related philosophies"? Let us see whether the editors of Buddhism template allow such a thing. 3. I do not agree to this, there are not more that 3-4 sutras in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras which actually deal with "meditation" in the sense of doing yoga asanas.

And it does not matter how you have studied two separate but comparable religions together; one can do that with any two religions like Hinduism and Christianity or Hinduism and Islam. That is not a reason to add Christianity and Islam as "related Indian philosophies." For one thing they --Buddhism and Jainism-- are not merely "philosophies" but religions comprising many philosophical schools. Each of them have dedicated portals on wiki: Portal:Buddhism, Portal:Jainism

All this is in addition to my earlier explanations as to why it is not OK to add separate religions to a Hindu philosophy template. I have also suggested Sarah Welch to change the header and logo and call it Indian philosophy if she wants to add Buddhist and Jain philosophical schools (and not merely Buddhism,Jainism and Sikhism) to this template. I have then agreed with you and Ogress that since there is already an Indian philosophy footer there is no need to change this template. -Mohanbhan (talk) 19:51, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I (Preearch) was pinged above by Joshua Jonathan and asked, "could you explain to our friend why it might be warranted to include Buddhism and Jainism?" Having started to read through the enormous set of comments, and then skimmed when it got to be too much, I will try. But I am not optimistic, because I have seldom seen an editor with so few edits be so insistent on trying to impose his/her will on a matter that seems to be more an issue of encyclopedia construction preferences than of substance. Buddhism and Jainism have a shared history of more than 2000 years with the collection of viewpoints and practices that began to be called Hinduism around 1000 years ago (see Unifying Hinduism); it took awhile for the terms astika and nastika to be stabilized. So clearly they are related topics. In WP articles, many related topics are linked in text in ways that their relationship is explained; but others are linked in a "see also" section. It is perfectly legitimate for a Template to provide a similar service, and what appears to be the enormous agitation displayed by our friend at such linking (claims that Wikipedia will lose all legitimacy, etc.) seems to bespeak of a failure to see things in proportion, which often suggests lack of detachment, though I think our friend is unlikely to agree that such a condition would apply to him. But I think he should consider this as a distinct possiblity.

That said, I do find that our friend asked a rather interesting question, 'You should rather be adding Advaita Vedanta or Hinduism under Buddhist philosophy. Why don't you try adding Advaita Vedanta to Template:Buddhism by creating a subhead titled "Other related philosophies"? Let us see whether the editors of Buddhism template allow such a thing.' I suspect he is correct, and that editors of Buddhism might indeed be grudging about so prominent an admission of influence (assuming adequate documentation could be found of influence of Vedanta on Buddhism). But would the influence be as much as the reverse? And even if it is, implying an inconsistency in style between the templates, how much does this type of inconsistency between such extreme-high-level templates matter?

For a long time I've regretted the demise in use (and later deletion) of a more inclusive template that covered writers from all the major Indian-derived religions. In my experience, many people are interested in writers across diverse traditions which now must be sought out in a balkanized set of templates (e.g., Hindu, Buddhist), making it easier for people to remain ignorant of other traditions (which seems a smidgen contrary to the mission of Wikipedia). --Presearch (talk) 00:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Presearch:, @Joshua Jonathan: Thank you, both. Indeed, that question "why not add Jainism and Hinduism" as related philosophies in Buddhism template, "why not add Buddhism and Hinduism" as related philosophies in Jainism template are interesting. Such additions would indeed add useful links consistent with the mission of Wikipedia. Yet, I feel that debate better belongs on respective template's talk page.

I sense the current views on whether to include "Related Indian philosophies" section in this template are:

Perfectly legitimate to add: @Ms Sarah Welch, @Joshua Jonathan, and @Presearch

Still chewing on this: @Ogress

Perfectly against: @Mohanbhan

I invite @Abecedare: who may or may not respond. Abecedare, who is another veteran contributor and an admin, helped sort a complicated topic on Noticeboard for India-related topics today. Abecedare: any wisdom, or summary of past community RfC consensus on templates, or suggestions on this? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:43, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not about numbers Sarah Welch, it is about making valid arguments and citing reliable sources. You, Joshua and Presearch have not cited reliable sources, nor are your arguments for inclusion persuasive. Presearch this statement of yours "Buddhism and Jainism have a shared history of more than 2000 years with the collection of viewpoints and practices that began to be called Hinduism around 1000 years ago (see Unifying Hinduism)" is very controversial because as far as I know the first recorded use of the word "Hindooism" was in 1816 by Rammohun Roy. I will still look up Unifying Hinduism but the general consensus among indologists and sanskritists is that Hinduism as we know it today is a 19th century development.

And this is what Ogress has said, "I know it's informational, but it's super distasteful to stick Sikhism and Jainism in particular into Hinduism, they get enough faeces as it stands and I think simply adding Buddhism is inaccurate." Which means she is also unambiguously against the inclusion. -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Astika and Nastika schools and Hindu philosophy:

Sushil Mittal & Gene Thursby (2004), The Hindu World, Routledge, 1, pages 729-730.

Roy Perrett (2000), Indian Philosophy, Routledge, 2, page 88.

Mittal and Thursby list 6 astika and 3 nastika philosophies. Perrett lists 6 astika and 4 nastika (including Ajivika). For more reliable sources on Ajivika, the less discussed school, see above. Both of the above sources explicitly discuss "Hindu philosophy". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: I am puzzled also by your demand for "cite reliable sources" here, when you refuse to do the same on Carvaka talk page for your claim, "Carvaka is not a Hindu philosophy". In that article, where this template has been used, you are lecturing me to read the book and "derive a conclusion you are with your original research". This double standard is strange and disruptive. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:20, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You made that comment asking me for the precise page number etc half an hour ago Sarah Welch. I will provide the excerpt. I asked you to read the first chapter of Chattopadhyaya's book which elaborates what I have said on the Carvaka talk page. Since you are not ready to do that I will provide the excerpt. Have some patience and don't make hasty accusations about double standards etc. -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:57, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: It is strange that you are now going to look for an "excerpt" after you have made disruptive edits. I am not looking for an excerpt where I must do original research to make new conclusions that the author doesn't. Just mention the page number where you see the conclusion, and I will verify. Are books by Mittal & Thursby and Perrett reliable sources to you; if not why not? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:17, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Though Mittal and Thursby identify Carvaka, Jainism and Buddhism as Nastika schools of Hindu philosophy they qualify the claim with this: "Though it should be noted that this division is more political than intellectual, as there is very little Vedic content in some of the orthodox systems." Wikipedia is no place to reflect spurious classifications made on political grounds. Though Perrett uses the word "Hindu philosophical theology" initially, he is cautious enough to use the phrase "the broad Indian philosophical tradition" to categorize the Nastika schools. So these citations are not good enough to class Jainism, Buddhism, Carvaka and Ajivika as Nastika schools of Hindu philosophy.

What disruptive edits are you talking about Sarah Welch? Have I restored the revert you have made to Carvaka page or the Hindu philosophy template? And why is it strange to give an excerpt from the said book? I want everyone to see what we are talking about; not everyone will have access to that book. -Mohanbhan (talk) 03:27, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mohanbhan: thank you for your extensive reply; it's clear what your thoughts are. A few comments:

• It's reasonable to use the allegiance to the Veda's as a criterium; yet, it's also reasonable to use a 'common-sense', or 'real-life', or 'committed identity' argument (I'm searching for the right words here): not all the Hindu-traditions acknowledge the (centrality of) authority of the Veda's; Tantric Shaivism, for example, has its own corpus;
• We've given two sources already, Geofrey Samuel's The Origins of Yoga and Tantra, and Andrew J. Nicholson's Unifying Hinduism;
• It's an interesting thought to add Advaita Vedanta to Buddhism-templates; regrettably, the Buddhism-related articles are suffering from a chronic lack of historicity regarding the interactions with other Indian religions and philosophy.

@Presearch: thank you very much for your reply; I trust you appreciate the irony of my appeal to you. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:41, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) @Mohanbhan: I hope you didn't miss that Mittal and Thursby are talking about "orthodox" (astika schools) when they make their "political than intellectual" comment, not "heterodox" schools. Is there a Wikipedia policy page you can point to that says, "Wikipedia does not allow content that is based on political classifications (even if it is in a reliable recent scholarly source)? or something equivalent?"

The Perrett source states on page 88, "The Mimamsa is one of the six major orthodox schools of Hindu philosophical theology. The term used in the tradition for orthodoxy is astika, and it is contrasted with nastika or heterodoxy, or better still non-orthodoxy. Much debate in Hindu theology centers around whether a particular view or system of thought is astika or nastika. (...) Those who deny the validity of the Veda are by definition nastika and comprise, in the broad Indian philosophical traditions, the materialists Carvaka or Lokyata, the Ajivikas, the Jainas, the Buddhists."

Perrett book therefore is a reliable scholarly source that supports the content of the proposal above: put Buddhism etc under "Related Indian Philosophies". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• My 2c: Having read/skimmed through the above discussion here I are my main two thoughts:

1. If it were a question of classifying schools of philosophy, I would side with Mohanbhan's POV and exclude the nastika schools (Jainism, Buddhism, Cravaka, and Ajivika) from "Hindu" philosophy. Including them blurs eliminates whatever distinction exists between (classical) Indian philosophy and Hindu philosophy, and if we wish to do that we may as well use the term "Indian philosophy", which is overwhelmingly more common for the combined set of nastika+astika schools. See in particular, Chatterjee and Dutta (p.4 "Indian philosophy is not Hindu philosophy") or Dasgupta's (p. 67 of vol. 1) discussion of nastika and astika as classification of Indian philosophies from a Hindu POV; almost every source I have seen on the topic repeats this. John Grimes cited by Sarah above is the only author I have seen so far who talks of astika and nastika schools as being a sub-division of Hindu philosophy (as opposed to Indian philosophy), but I believe that he just a bit casual in that sentence especially since his own book is titled A Concise Dictionary of Indian Philosophy.
2. That said, templates are not meant to be classification tools. They are navigational aids meant to guide the reader to related articles that may be of interest, and the same sources I cite above (as well as numerous other books on Indian philosophy) clearly show that Hindu/astika schools are often discussed in context of nastika schools, with which they share a deep historical and philosophical relation. Discussing them in tandem is the approach taken by almost every comprehensive book on the subject, and this is not even a modern phenomenon. Chatterjee and Dutta (p.4 again) point out that Madhvacharya did so in his survey 800 years back!

In light of the above two points, my preference is to (a) include the nastika schools in the template, while (b) making it clear that they are not being "claimed" to be Hindu (whatever that means). If others can agree with this, we just need to come up with a mechanism for achieving the latter goal for which there are several options, such as:

• Simply retitling the template as Indian philosophy and making it a vertical analog of the existing Template:Indian philosophy, with which it already shares most of the content. Which version to include on any particular page can then be decided based on what other templates, images etc are competing for sidebar placement.
• Reorganizing the section titles within the template to make the distinction clear. Frankly, I think the previous version with Buddhism, Jainism, Carvaka and Ajivika listed in the Nastika section already did an adequate job, but I am open to any suggestion (such as using "Related systems") that can achieve consensus.

Thoughts, objections or suggestions? Abecedare (talk) 04:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]