Initiated by Rich Farmbrough at 12:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Rich Farmbrough arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 2

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Rich Farmbrough (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Information about amendment request

• Remedy 2

• Terminate the remedy

In a case brought against me some three and a half years ago, it was found that certain community norms had been broken by me, specifically WP:BOTPOL, WP:5P4 and WP:ARBRFUAT.

I note that in the intervening period I have complied with WP:BOTPOL, been civil and collegial with other editors, and been responsive to other editors concerns, as anyone active in the community will know.

In particular I have continued to work at WP:TEAHOUSE, welcome new users, attempted to smooth ruffled feathers at WP:GGTF, mainly by focussing discussion on substantive issues, provided assistance to other editors both on and off-wiki (a list could be made available if desired). I have continued to work on other wikis with no issues.

I also continue to perform work high community trust, on protected templates, but more importantly on edit filters where, together with others (notably Dragons flight) I have overhauled almost every filter to ensure that the whole system continues to work (it was failing) and new filters can be implemented.

Moreover not only have I been policy compliant, collegial and responsive, I have every intention of continuing indefinitely to be so.

For these reasons I request the Arbitration Committee to terminate remedy 2.

Addenda:

Please note that I am eligible to request termination of this sanction from 15 January 2013. The sanction, qua sanction, is continuing to impact my good name in the community, notably impeding my recent RfA, and so the time has come to remove it.

Please also note that I have suggested a more nuanced approach to complete termination in the past, which has been dismissed by various committee members, with rather unflattering characterisations.

Responses

Thryduulf  I would certainly consider you views valuable. I have met with other members of the committee at various wiki-functions. Whether to recuse must be your decision. I would not find fault either way. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:28, 8 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Thryduulf  "editor's future employment prospects" maybe; however they can and maybe should consider the effect on the project - especially if the reasons for maintaining the restriction aren't particularly cogent.

"All automated tasks paused or blocked until..." You may be aware that I offered this as part of a solution in the workshop. (I was under the illusion that a workshop was for co-operating to find a way forward.) And I beleive that SmackBot was the only major bot that allowed anyone (including IPs) to stop it - a facility I intended to reintroduce for Helpful Pixie Bot.

Hotcat: really I would doubt that I would use it more than a few times a week at most.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:10, 12 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Clarification - I am not looking to any of the half-dozen tools I mention to perform masses of edits. I am probably one of the slowest Huggle users there is - because I tend to look in more depth at anything that could possibly be goof-faith. It's simply that these tools are all useful, and most of them can be used by every Wikipdia editor except me. Certainly even an IP is allowed to prepare a table in Libre Office and paste the result on-wiki.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Guerillero  You must have a reason for saying that, do you mind if I ask what it is?

Gorilla Warfare  It's hard to be specific. Indeed I have very little time to put into large scale projects. But even simple things like:

1. This list I created on Meta today are forbidden on en:WP.
2. User:WereSpielChequers has a number of lists that need updating.
3. There is a lot of work with WP:Women in Red that needs doing.
4. User:Carrite was looking for better information on editor activity, which I have acquired the data for, but not started coding, partly because I would not be allowed to upload the results.
5. The correction of the User:Jagged 85 issues has ground to a halt, partly because I had to load my diagnostics onto Meta
6. It would be nice to be able to use Twinkle, Reflinks and Hotcat
7. I might even do some anti-vandal work with Huggle or STiki

But the main point is the stigma. This affects not just my standing in the community, but my ability to volunteer for certain roles on-wiki, and even my eligibility for employment off-wiki.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Seraphimblade  What lead up to it? A lot of things, that I can address here (or elsewhere) if you wish. However what I prefer to address specifically is the negative "findings of fact" which are putatively the committee's take on "what lead up to it." For example one suggested that I was "not responsive". I do not here challenge that claim, I simply point out that since that date I have been responsive. Similarly I have not infringed on BOTPOL. And I doubt anyone could challenge that I have been collegial - indeed my main thrust on the non-content part of Wikipedia has to be to encourage people to work together - and civil. Indeed I have had two complaints about being too civil.

Moreover I can state categorically that I have every intention of continuing to be collegial, civil, responsive and policy compliant.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:11, 10 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
(Currently watching WikiConference USA live.)

Corcelles  Your response does not provide any useful feedback. I have explicitly invited feedback from Arbitrators on several occasions over the years, which has given you plenty of opportunity to discuss any issues you think remain unresolved. If, of course, you believe that I am an unredeemable case, then no feedback is to be expected, as it would be a waste of your valuable time. Otherwise a more detailed response would be useful.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

AGK  I am surprised you are not recusing yourself here All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:05, 12 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Native Foreigner  I am always interested in any wisdom about my actions. I reiterate the invitation to share or discuss them, here, on my talk page, by email, by phone/Skype or in person which I made some considerable time ago.

As to looking into the case, I'm afraid it's a bit of a mammoth, but I find the weakness of the supporting evidence to the findings, and particularly the need to go back additional years quite telling. To take one example, I am under sanctions now, partly for making edits in 2010, which someone has deemed were "too fast" to comply with BOTPOL. And yet there is nothing in BOTPOL of 10 November 2010 about any limitation on assisted editing speed. (Later versions specifically exclude speed alone as being an issue.) And the speed wasn't excessive - most editors who do administrative work will have had bursts of comparable speed - for example you edited at 10 edits per minute on 17 July. According to the 2012 committee you should have submitted a BRFA authorisation for that.

Now this is just one part of one finding, and it took quite some research to check the BOTPOL pages for the appropriate dates, check the evidence, come up with a comparator. It is also a nominally objective piece of evidence and a nominally objective policy. For subjective matters like being "civil" and "responsive" the amount of work required to construct a good refutation is much higher. I therefore requested the committee allow me 14 days to put together a response to the proposed findings. This was refused and I never got to defend myself from the very surprising proposed decision, and have been working on-and-off to deal with the problems it has caused ever since.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:57, 13 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

DGG  Perhaps you would like to give an example? We have a lot of tools in our kit-bag to deal with problems, making them mostly trivial to resolve. There are no negative findings about any automated edits. Indeed finding WP:ARB RF EX EX EX states:

He has extensive experience with and expertise in the use of automation...

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:08, 14 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Salvio giuliano  Thank you for your positive response.   All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Doug Weller  Thanks for your thoughtful response. It might be of interest to know that I offered to work with a similar halting system during the workshop phase of the case. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

I'm not sure what exactly would prevent Rich from parsing a large data set and posting his results, which he mentions above with regards to analysis of WMF data to draw inferences about the editing population. If anything stands in the way of this, it needs to be set aside, at a minimum. As for the rest, once again ArbCom is looking more than a little stubborn and vindictive here in not allowing RF some sort of path back to full functionality as an editor. Drop his restrictions and restore them by motion if he resumes negative behavior, it seems obvious. I'm very frustrated with the current committee's lack of faith or willingness to take minor risks for the greater good of the project. Carrite (talk) 14:56, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can see that Arbcom might see an opportunity here merely to clarify the original excessive limitations and allow Rich to use hotcat and reflinks and to generate reports in his own userspace or ideally Wikipedia space. But really the time for such a clarification was three and a half years ago, surely by now it is time to simply lift that sanction.

As Rich mentioned he has produced some very useful lists Wikipedia:Articles with UK Geocodes but without images being my favourite example. Along with a couple of other editors I've been testing image adding as an exercise for new editors, and we reckon we are ready, we just need this sanction lifted so we can get the report regularly refreshed instead of telling newbies to remove items from the list.

With the loss of toolserver and the problems at labs we have lost many regular reports. Including three areas I've started or been involved in such as Death Anomalies - which would be the next one I'd ask Rich to consider adopting. The lack of these reports is incredibly frustrating, and seriously holds the project back. You have an opportunity to reduce that problem by lifting or at least reducing the restrictions on Rich. ϢereSpielChequers 09:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is time to move on, and let the Community of Wikipedians take over, rather than Arbcom never letting go and in the process throwing away the Committee's valuable time, which ought to be invested on real risks and divisive harmful issues within the community.

There is no risk whatsoever to Wikimedia projects if all sanctions are now lifted. This long ago became a incomprehensible and bureaucratic punishment, rather than a sanction that can be claimed to be done to "protect the community", or Rich for that matter.

If members of Arbcom wish to advise the Wikipedia community, they might validly suggest a voluntary restriction like 10 pages per minute. I have no doubt that Rich would subscribe to these suggestions and make a case with the community when he is ready to relax them further. There are plenty of highly active Wikimedians that will help Rich out with advice and reviews of his edits, should they introduce any issues with articles or templates.

Everyone writing here knows that Rich is a valuable contributor who has rare talents to offer our shared mission and he should be supported, encouraged and praised for his astonishing commitment, rare skills and patience during this years long case.

I haven't talked in person to Rich since last year. However we have had several chats about the future of the projects, chapters and the Foundation over the years. Back in 2012 I interviewed him about his experience with Arbcom, this remains unpublished. I expected to write it up once his Arbcom sanctions ended, as I did not want an interview which examined the experience and emotional impact that long punitive cases like this have, to influence the case or later appeals. We had no idea that this would be eating up our time and stopping Rich from contributing in 2015. --Fæ (talk) 12:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

After three and a half years, it's time to just lift these sanctions. I don't think leaving them in place in any way serves the interest of the project. I doubt very much that Rich is suddenly going to go off into 'La La Land' if these restrictions are lifted. It's time to AGF here and move on. Also, it is reasonable to assume that leaving these sanctions in place will make it impossible for Rich to advance at RfA and be resysopped – thus leaving sanction in place almost seems punitive at this point. Anyway, that's my $0.02. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:33, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Adding my support for the sanction to be lifted. Others have said it more eloquently above so I won't try and rehash it. Plus, if I'm honest, I'm still pretty annoyed about the original decision and I'm not sure if writing a few paragraphs criticising the committee would help Rich's case here. Suffice it to say, I think they made the wrong call then and it looks even more wrong three years down the track. Please do the right thing and extend Rich some good faith. Jenks24 (talk) 07:28, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While intuition and gut feeling about something might be legitimate on Wikipedia; in an Arbitration case and with the arbs as with the rest of the community those feelings must be supported by specific diffs of actions which clearly indicate a user cannot be trusted or has not functioned appropriately under a restriction. 31/2 years is along time, and I don't see any specific diffs from that time period pointing to poor editing behaviour or to behaviours which would indicate a restriction is necessary. Arbitrators are held to the same standards we all are and should support allegations with substantive proof for their positions. Arbitrators are not judges or juries; they are the neutral third party in disputes. Here the parties. the members of the community who have concerns and Rich have spoken so the arbs then, given the definitions of their role must indicate why this is not sufficient to undue a restrictions. In my opinion assuming a position on 3 1/2 years of editing with out anything specific or substantive to support that position is unfair and punitive neither which are appropriate.

• Per Thryduulf:

The community is the encyclopedia. They, community and encyclopedia, as I think you are implying are not mutually exclusive except in some instances. Your comment brought up for me an conern I have when I see the statement, "this is an encyclpedia first." It is not an encyclpedia first, it is first a collaboratibe project the goal of which is to create an encyclopedia. Unless the individuals are treated fairly the communithy will eventually collapse and so of course will the encyclopedia. I have great respect for Thryduulf's consistent, deeply thoughtful comments. Thank you. :O)(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:48, 19 October 2015 (UTC)) Statement by {other-editor}[reply]

Some of Rich statements are extremely encouraging: "one suggested that I was "not responsive". I do not here challenge that claim, I simply point out that since that date I have been responsive." and reassuring: "I am not looking to any of the half-dozen tools I mention to perform masses of edits.". These are countered by argumentation: "There are no negative findings about any automated edits."—Findings of fact are hopefully neutral; and rationale that are not obviously for the benefit of the encyclopedia: "eligibility for employment off-wiki" and "notably impeding my recent RfA".

The block has had a positive effect on Rich's contributions and it is extremely pleasing that Rich has built a new niche after the boundaries were made clear—but editors have long memories of the (past) unparalleled disruption caused by self-invented-up AWB tasks, so it's unlikely to be able to find a route that's going to please everyone the first time around. We can see the clearly divided opinions, so something down the middle is probably the least unpalatable to all.

It is extremely easy to simply say "no", but perhaps Doug et al's suggestions of limited parole in own User space and performing tasks requested by others (ie. not dreamt-up) in non-article space, are a plausible solution. For the proponents this gives Rich Farmbrough a chance to prove himself, and for the doubters this can be seen as WP:ROPE. Enforcement likely needs to stay at WP:AE with incrementing draconian blocks, because this is the only remedy has worked effectively in effecting behavioural change, with everything else has resulted in endless discussion ("dramaz"). For AE to be effective any new boundaries require equally clear-cut edges so that evaluation can be quantifiable and enforcement can be emotionless—Rich should know where the edges are without the need to feel or push.

Yes, I have [past tense] been massively inconvenienced by Rich + bots for several years, half-a-decade ago. I've been watching this and I'm even willing to argue for some level of rehabilitation. Even I'm amazed by that. Support has its limits through; and I would invite Rich to make a clear statement about whether he wishes to go the bot route (here) or the admin route (RfA)—I don't think any combination of trying to do both is either tenable or feasible. Such an undertaking might well be sufficient for even the most resolute doubters to come around. —Sladen (talk) 21:58, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• I'm considering whether to recuse on this, given extensive interaction with Rich IRL at wikimeets and the like. Rich, if you have a strong opinion either way let me know and I'll respect that. Thryduulf (talk) 14:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have decided I do not need to recuse here. I do not think that an editor's future employment prospects are something that we can consider (cf Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ#Motion Carried re images of sexuality in ancient and medieval times) as our remit is to act in the interests of the encyclopaedia and the wider project rather than the interests of individual editors (where these are mutually exclusive). In contrast perhaps to previous committees I'm tempted to allow a modification to the restriction. As an initial proposal for discussion I would suggest allowing:
    1. the manual use of WP:HOTCAT at a rate not exceeding a rate of 10 pages edited using hotcat in any 60 minute period. Your hotcat edits should not exceed 50% of your total article namespace edits in any 24 hour period.
    2. the use of automated tools to generate project-space or userspace lists and to maintain those lists if necessary, where these have been asked for by other Wikimedians and have permission granted at WP:BOTREQ.

    These would all be subject to the requirement that in the event of any complaints or queries raised about your automated edits by another editor, all automated tasks must be paused or halted at least until the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of all parties, or to the satisfaction of an uninvolved administrator if agreement cannot be reached.

  I would not, at this stage, be inclined to allow the use of any automated tools that make any edits to content namespaces (other than hotcat). I do not think that these would lead to the problems that lead to these restrictions in the first place, but would allow Rich to demonstrate he can use automation responsibly. Thryduulf (talk) 10:21, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not inclined to remove this sanction --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:01, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• @Rich Farmbrough: What kind of bot-assisted edits would you intend to make, should this sanction be removed? GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:05, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• @Rich Farmbrough: What do you understand as the issues that led up to the sanction being placed, and what steps would you take to prevent similar situations from occurring again? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 13:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I could support a relaxation of the restriction, as I do see the point that Rich's overall style of interaction really has improved. I think I'd want to see how that works out before supporting a parole leading toward eventual lifting. I think the restrictions to non-mainspace for automated tasks are wise, at least initially, and certainly only to preapproved tasks (and any tests necessary prior to approval). For semiautomation, like Huggle and the like, I think we could allow normal use of that, provided that such tools are not used for any unsupervised, fully automated editing in mainspace and Rich is in fact pressing the button for each such edit. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:48, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• I will not support removing or loosening this sanction. Courcelles (talk) 14:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually, I would support one and only one relaxation; that being to Rich's own userspace and user talk space. Courcelles (talk) 02:23, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I too would not allow this request. AGK [•] 09:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• I have serious concerns about lifting such sanctions. That being said I do somewhat concur with the view that occasionally risks must be taken. The action which Rich took were indubitably problematic and I think to some degree he may not fully understand what was problematic about them. I feel, personally, like it may not be prudent. However, we're quite far down the line and to take a risk (or even to do something as minor as allowing bot edits in non content workspaces so long as the bot is reviewed, or perhaps implementing a somewhat more strict mentor or approval process). As my term continues I am growing less and less enthusiastic with the notion of grand packages of restrictions to allow problem editors to stay, although this is primarily within the realm of civility. Nonetheless I think this needs discussion past the point of "I have issues trusting this individual." Don't get me wrong, I have concerns about lifting the restriction myself, but it's been 3+ years and some of the originally identified poor behaviors seem to have changed for the better. The general community support for removing them also bears considering. The individual certainly seems to have more trust with the community than with the members of arbcom, and why exactly this is I am not sure, but it has convinced me I should look more into the case to see if I am missing anything from either side. NativeForeigner ^Talk 17:14, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• The problems that can be created by any automated editing can be so difficult to resolve, that I'm not prepared to take the risk. DGG ( talk ) 05:46, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• In this case, I support a parole; alternatively, if there is no consensus for that, I also support a relaxation of the restriction. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 10:57, 16 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• I support gradual relaxation, with the first stage his own userspace and talkpage, work on User:Jagged 85 if that doesn't involved directly editing articles, and specific requests from users such as User:WereSpielChequers to do non-article space work (which other editors could then move into article spaceif required). Where appropriate obviously he'd need permission granted at WP:BOTREQ. I don't see any particular risks in such a relaxation and it appears that other editors and indeed the project could benefit from it. I'd include Thryduulf's requirement that "These would all be subject to the requirement that in the event of any complaints or queries raised about your automated edits by another editor, all automated tasks must be paused or halted at least until the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of all parties, or to the satisfaction of an uninvolved administrator if agreement cannot be reached." Rich should be given a chance to show that he can use his skills responsibly. Doug Weller (talk) 15:35, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by CypherPunkyBrewster at 15:22, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Privatemusings arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• CypherPunkyBrewster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Note: This is a legitimate alternative account. I will be happy to reveal my main account to arbcom on request.

In the 2007 Privatemusings case, (Final decision --> Principles --> Sockpuppetry) the following language was used:

"Sockpuppet accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project, such as policy debates."

This is referenced by Wikipedia:Sock puppetry (Inappropriate uses of alternative accounts --> Editing project space) with the language

"Editing project space: Undisclosed alternative accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project."

I created this account after the gamergate arbcom case. In that case, I did not comment on that case using my main account because so many people who have expressed an opinion on gamergate have received real-world harassment off-wiki. I was hoping to use this account if that ever happened again (and, of course, only in cases where I was unambiguously uninvolved.)

Q1: In cases where I have had no prior interactions with anyone named in an arbcom case and had never edited the pages being discussed is using my alternate account to make a statement in an arbcom case a legitimate use of an alternate account?

Q2: Same question, but for ANI, RS noticeboard, NPOV noticeboard, AIAV, COI noticeboard, etc.

Q3: What, exactly, are undisclosed alternative accounts? Is this account "disclosed" by way of my disclosing that it is an alternative account, or do I have to name my main account?

Q4: What, exactly are "discussions internal to the project" and/or "edits to project space"? Are we talking about namespaces here, and if so, which ones?

Basically, I just want clear guidelines on what I can and can not do using this alternative account. I am not disputing any policies or decisions; I just want to know how to follow them.

• To User:JzG, who wrote "CypherPunkyBrewster is an account apparently created to advance the cause of climate change denial": You are wrong, and you are failing to assume good faith. This alternate account was created in order to edit articles and participate in discussions related to those articles where there is a significant chance of being branded as pro-gamergate, anti-gamergate, global warming denialist, global warming alarmist, pinko liberal, tea-party conservative, or even swivel-eyed loon. I am well aware of the discretionary sanctions associated with American Politics and Climate Change. I do not believe that I have violated the DS using this account, and I have completely stayed away from climate change on my main account for obvious reasons. If you think that I have violated the DS, feel free to report me at AE (I have no problem with identifying my main account to arbcom and asking them to publicly confirm no global warming involvement.)

• To User:Rich Farmbrough, who wrote "Of course that is a matter for the community, not the committee, though their comments would undoubtedly have some weight", because the 2007 Privatemusings case is cited at the sock puppetry page, I strongly suspect that any attempt to start a community discussion on this topic would quickly devolve into multiple comments telling me to go to arbcom, so I did that first. Also, depending on how one answers my questions above, I could very well be forbidden from starting a community discussion on this topic. It would be, after all, a "discussions internal to the project". CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 03:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• To User:Seraphimblade (regarding the entire comment), That makes perfect sense to me, and I will have no problem following the clarification you posted. Thanks! On reflection, I see the wisdom of using the alternate account only for article editing and dispute resolution directly related to those articles. I will stay away from discussions of project policy, requesting sanctions against other editors, or general participation in dispute resolution or audited content processes when not related to articles I am working on with my alternate account. And of course I already knew that the main and alternate account must keep strictly clear of editing in the same area, and all the other "don't do that"s listed in the sock puppetry policy. I will note that I made one edit that I now know was not allowed.[1] I apologize for that and assure you that it will not happen again. Again, thanks for the clear explanation. CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 04:17, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• To Salvio giuliano, If another case like gamergate ever hits arbcom, I would like to comment as an uninvolved editor (revealing my main account to arbcom so you can verify that I am not involved), but not if it means revealing my real-world identity. Some of those involved in gamergate have done some nasty real-world harassment against those who disagree with them. Let me know if you think a majority of arbcom agrees with you and I will post an RfC at the sock puppet page. I have never made a gamergate edit using either account, but assuming that I had edited gamergate using my alternate account, as I understand it it would be OK for someone to name me as being involved, followed by my revealing my main account to arbcom so you can confirm that the main account has never edited gamergate. So let's say that happens and I end up being blocked (not likely, BTW; my main account is over five years old with over 10,000 edits and no blocks or editing restrictions and I don't intent to abuse this one either). It would seem reasonable in that case to block both accounts, but how to do that without revealing my real-world identity? In my particular case I know the rules about block evasion and would cease editing using my main account until the block was lifted on my alternate account, but I doubt that this would be a good solution for the more aggressive editors who end up at arbcom. So how do we handle that situation? --CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• To GorillaWarfare, is it even allowed for an alternate account like mine to make a clean start while the main account stays the same? I kind of assumed that that wouldn't be allowed. Unrelated question; I do want to give people confidence that I am not violating our sock puppet rules, so if I put a notice on my user page saying that any and all checkusers can look at my account for any reason, would that override the usual checkuser restrictions? Is there any way my waiving my privacy in that way could compromise the privacy of someone else? CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Related question: Again just asking about what this particular arbcom decision does and does not allow, and of course assuming that the other legitimate sock puppet restrictions are obeyed, is an alternate account allowed to ask questions at the teahouse, reference desk, or help desk? I think that we have already established that this is allowed if in support of an article the alt account is working on, but how about generally? Some questions might be of a personal nature. How about answering questions posted by others? I saw a recent rrefdesk question where one of the answers mentioned that the person answering was transgender. That might not be something you want to be published on the internet about yourself. --CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 20:28, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I urge the committee not to accept any requests from this account until there is a public declaration of the editor's primary account. BMK (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Guy's comment below, I concur that CPB's edits do indeed seem to be pushing that agenda. I have asked CPB on their talk page to reveal what account they are an alternate of, but if he or she refuses or ignores the request, I strongly urge the committee not to proceed without CPB revealing to the committee what that account is, and an evaluation being made to see if any aspect of WP:SOCK is being violated. Alternate accounts may not be used to avoid scrutiny, and the climate change area is certainly one in which there has been a significant amount of sockpuppety and other disruptions. BMK (talk) 22:06, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have placed a Climate Change Discretionary Sanctions notice on CPB's talk page. BMK (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So on his talk page - as well as personally attacking me and my motivations - CPB says that he wants to use this account to edit contentious subjects, such as Gamergate, Climate Change, and American Politics. But there is a standard in place for editing Gamergate - since we don't know who CPB is, how is that standard of time/edits to be applied? Certainly the CPB account wouldn't qualify.

In any case, from CPB's description on the talk page, it appears to me that what he wants is a "get out of jail free" card, where his "legitimate" alternate account can raise hell in contentious and disputatious subject areas, and his primary account can merrily edit without suffering any consequences, or scrutiny from other editors. BMK (talk) 03:12, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Since anything the Arbitrators say here is simply advisory in nature, and since CypherPunkyBrewster has outed his other identity ([2]), perhaps this ought to be closed. BMK (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@NE Ent: Blocks are for people, not for accounts. BMK (talk) 02:27, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I note for the record that admin Swarm has rev del'd or oversighted the self-identification I referred to above, I'm not sure under what theory. BMK (talk) 05:10, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I also note that the AN/I thread which Guy Macon opened about this issue has been moved by Swarm [3] to Archive 901, and then was rev del'd or oversighted from that archive by him [4]. BMK (talk) 05:24, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rich Farmbrough: There is no reason to "rejoice in one's own cleverness" when the master account discloses their identity and then attempts to deny it, instead of simply standing mute. Seeing hyprocrisy such as that brings joy to nobody. BMK (talk) 16:52, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This has always seemed to me an invidious limitation of legitimate socks. If someone wants (for whatever reason) to use different accounts for different subject areas, then to suggest that those accounts be banned from "project space" discussion is not useful. Certainly crossover should be minimised. I have always imagined that this was an unintentional broadening of the proscription regarding creation of false impressions of support.

Of course that is a matter for the community, not the committee, though their comments would undoubtedly have some weight.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Addendum

This is a clarification request about:

1. A previous ruling
2. Opinion on policy

Clearly if it constituted trolling and was also deemed not useful, then the Committee would be very likely to speedy close it one way or another - and in the very unlikely event that the trolling nature was obscure, posting evidence to that effect would be legitimate.

However this seems a perfectly good faith question - and the fact that there is difference of opinion, and legitimate hemming and hawing from respected editors indicates that it is one that needs to be taken seriously.

In this context neither attempted outing nor tarring the interlocutor with the brush "climate change denialist" are necessarily useful.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:58, 12 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Salvio  - I think NE Ent is perfectly correct. Editing while blocked is of course blockable, and generally leads to block extensions. It would certainly verge on self-outing if a block of the alternate account/extension of block resulted in people putting two and two together. Of course there would still be no need for anyone to, rejoicing in their own cleverness, comment on the identity of the main account. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

CypherPunkyBrewster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an account apparently created to advance the cause of climate change denial. Given the arbitration cases in that are already (both American Politics and Climate change), it would seem like a really bad idea to let this alternate account edit in project space. Guy (Help!) 21:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If one account gets blocked, the editor simply doesn't use other when the block is in place. NE Ent 19:42, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The way I've handled the main account blocked and alt account issue is leaving the alt account unblocked, then if it evades the block on the master's account blocking it for block evasion (without saying more) or asking another admin (a CU when it happened) to block the alt account. That way the two blocks are either separated by time, or, even better, by different blocking admins. If you wanted to block both accounts for the duration of the block the same principle applies, one admin blocks the main account and another blocks the alt account (with a different, but similar block summary). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:04, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The editor is asking a long string of hypothetical questions. Some of them are brainteasers and not without interest. But the editor has not identified any special hardship that causes them to need relief from the sockpuppet policy. Since there is no valid grievance here there is nothing to adjudicate. My suggestion is that Arbcom should close this request with no action. Changes in policy can be proposed elsewhere. EdJohnston (talk) 02:16, 15 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• As Rich Farmbrough says, this is a matter of the sockpuppetry/alternate accounts policy, but it was also brought up in the Privatemusings case. The idea behind it, I think, is quite clear. Some editors, if they, for example, edit articles on sexuality, politics, or other "hot button" areas, may not want those edits to be associated with their main account. Provided that the main and alternate account keep strictly clear of editing in the same area, and the alternate account isn't being used to behave badly or otherwise avoid scrutiny, that is permitted. But the alternate account is not to be used in areas outside of article editing. Article editing, in my view, would generally be composed of the article and article talk spaces, any dispute resolution processes directly related to those articles such as mediation if you're reasonably a party to such a process, and other areas directly related to article content editing such as featured article/good article/DYK candidacies related to articles edited by the alternate account. So at least in my view, it wouldn't be entirely bound to a given namespace. Rather, it is bound to a purpose, content editing. It would not, therefore, include discussions of project policy, requesting sanctions against other editors, or other such internal processes. Nor would it allow general participation in dispute resolution or audited content processes when not related to articles the alternate account is working on. The editor would need to pick a single primary account to use in such internal discussions, and use only that account for them. If you'd prefer that the primary account not be associated with such discussions, your option would be to avoid participating in them.

  For your specific hypothetical scenarios, then: In an ArbCom case, the alternate account should be used only if it is a named party. If you'd like to jump in on a case you're not a named party to, use your primary account. (If the alternate account is a named party, it would be wise to inform the Committee privately of the situation.) AN(I) and other administrative boards, generally not (though I personally wouldn't care if you reported blatant vandals to AIV with it.) Content discussion boards like RSN, NPOVN, etc., yes, so long as the discussion there is directly related to the alternate account's edits. So, discussing content yes, discussing editors no. For your third question, "disclosure" in this sense would mean publicly and clearly disclosing what primary account the alternate account is linked to (you can see my public terminal account for what that looks like), not just disclosing that it is an alternate. I think your fourth question is answered by the above. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Beyond My Ken: You bring up some additional good points. In the case that an alternate account is engaging in poor or sanctionable behavior, I would see it as entirely justifiable for an administrator to indef the alternate account as a "bad hand" sock. Alternate accounts are not meant to engage in poor behavior without that reflecting on the primary account, and the sockpuppetry policy already forbids that type of misuse. The conduct of the alternate account must be absolutely above reproach. So far as areas like Gamergate where editing restrictions apply, if the alternate account doesn't meet the requirements to edit there and isn't clearly and publicly linked to an account that does, well then, that account can't be used to edit there. Admins need to be able to verify that the editor is eligible to edit there; a vague handwave that "Oh, I have a different account that does meet the requirements" doesn't cut it. Nor is private disclosure and verification in that instance. Even when feasible, that would be too much of a timesink. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 11:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• My interpretation of current policy is as follows:
  • Q1: In cases where I have had no prior interactions with anyone named in an arbcom case and had never edited the pages being discussed is using my alternate account to make a statement in an arbcom case a legitimate use of an alternate account?

    No. Participating in "discussions internal to the project" on an alternative account is explicitly prohibited by WP:SOCK, and ArbCom cases qualify.

  • Q2: Same question, but for ANI, RS noticeboard, NPOV noticeboard, AIAV, COI noticeboard, etc.

    Same as above; these are internal to the project.

  • Q3: What, exactly, are undisclosed alternative accounts? Is this account "disclosed" by way of my disclosing that it is an alternative account, or do I have to name my main account?

    No. Publicly disclosed alternative accounts are accounts that are identified by name and clearly linked to the main account. For example, if User:Foo stated clearly that they had registered the account User:Foo(public) for use on unsecured networks, it would not be a breach of policy for them to comment on internal discussions, as this account would be clearly linked to the primary account. Simply stating that an account is an alt is not sufficient. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:50, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Q4: What, exactly are "discussions internal to the project" and/or "edits to project space"? Are we talking about namespaces here, and if so, which ones?

    I'm hesitant to say concretely that alternate accounts can only edit the Main and article talk namespaces, because there are plenty of exceptions. I think Seraphimblade is correct to instead identify edits that are not directly related to improving article content as inappropriate.

I do think there is an interesting issue here, though. People who have accounts that are clearly traceable to real-world identities may not be comfortable participating in situations like the Gamergate case, where there is a real risk that people will try to retaliate. These people are effectively barred from participating in these discussions, as alternate accounts cannot be used in projectspace discussions even when used to protect privacy. The only real way for a user to get around this is a WP:Clean start, which comes with its own host of problems. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:50, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• • • Sorry if that was unclear. You would not be able to "clean start" with an alternative account—you would need to abandon the primary account in this hypothetical. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• My thoughts on this are essentially the same as Seraphimblade's. One way to allow alternate accounts used for the purposes of protecting privacy to participate in internal discussions would be to allow disclosure to the Arbitration Committee (possibly with some safeguards to prevent abuse of this). However, this would require amending both the sockpuppetry policy and the Privatemusings case. I would be amenable to the latter, but only if there is a community consensus for the former at an RfC or equivalent. Until that happens though, alternate accounts that are not publicly disclosed may not participate in arbitration cases, etc. to which they are not a party and that are unrelated to article content they are working on. Thryduulf (talk) 09:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Generally speaking, I tend to agree with my colleagues, with one exception: for me, alternative accounts disclosed to ArbCom cannot be considered "undisclosed alternative accounts" for the purposes of WP:SOCK. Then again, this is only my opinion and we are being asked to clarify a policy, rather than one of our decisions, so I don't know how much weight our collective opinions carry here. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 10:57, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If an editor has good reasons to desire to participate in an ArbCom case with an alternative account, he can try sending us an e-mail, explaining those reasons to us and if we're persuaded, we may grant an exception. That doesn't need an RfC.

    It would seem reasonable in that case to block both accounts, but how to do that without revealing my real-world identity? [...] So how do we handle that situation? I'll have to think about this a little more before I can give you an answer... Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 19:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• It is important to understand that principles reflect policy and generally-accepted best practices at the time they were written; principles are not in-and-of-themselves binding if community norms or policies change after the fact. It is not clear to me that any action is required on this matter. LFaraone 19:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by Js82 at 09:24, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

India-Pakistan arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Topic banned from edits in any namespace and any pages related to Indian religions, broadly construed

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Js82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• SpacemanSpiff (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• diff of notification SpacemanSpiff

Information about amendment request

• Topic banned from edits in any namespace and any pages related to Indian religions, broadly construed

• revocation of the sanction

UPDATE OCT 18 20:41 Greenwich Time: I am deciding to withdraw my amendment request. I do however wish to retain this application and my below statement as a means of having officially lodged a protest, and to appeal to the committee members to consider removal of Sikhism and other religious pages from the purview of India-Pakistan arbitration clauses.

If this is not acceptable, please let me know. Thank you.

A 6 month sanction has been imposed, related to Indian religions, broadly construed, citing "disruptive editing and an inability to collaborate with other editors". I feel this is completely unjust, and motivated by a deep-rooted desire to subdue a voice that does not conform with the personal views of some of the editors who overwhelmingly "control" these pages, and mostly act in groups to harass and torment new/differing view point editors.

On the actual pretext of "disruptive editing and inability to collaborate": I had joined Wikipedia in Aug 2015, and I understand that my edits for some period of time appeared disruptive (which Wikipedia itself agrees may happen with new editors). However, after I was blocked for a week last month, I have been careful and understanding of Wikipedia policies. In fact, over the last 25 days, I have only made very few edits (restricted to Sikhism page only), and have not engaged in any edit-warring. If anything, I have presented my views on the talk page, and moved away from a discussion where no headway seemed possible, rather than persisting with my POV. How can this be construed as "disruptive editing and non-collaboration" ? In the one case where there were differing views, it was actually one of the other editors (Ms Sarah Welch) who edit-warred. See Here. In the most recent instance, again, I had made only one edit, following which I have been engaging only in talk page discussions. Again, the user Ms Sarah Welch has made numerous edits within the past 24 hours itself, without getting any consensus at all. See Here. And the end result is, I am banned for "inability to cooperate" ? Citing an issue that has been discussed for less than 24 hours yet, where I gave no indication whatsoever of not being open to collaboration ?

My main interest here has been to improve Sikhism related articles. I feel that barring someone from editing Sikhism articles, under the pretext of an "India-Pakistan Arbitration" is highly contentious. India Pakistan may have territorial conflicts on Kashmir, etc, (which I presume is the reason for the arbitration powers), but what has that got to do with Sikhism? Further, Sikhism is in no way restricted to India and Pakistan (more than 5 million Sikhs live outside India), so how can this be justified ? One purpose it does serve though is to provide admins and editors with a Indian/Hinduism background or interests (who are present aplenty here, as opposed to those from Sikh background) the discretionary powers to shoot out and subdue voices that do not conform with their own POVs about Sikhism.

Finally, I have issues with even assuming Mr. Spiff to be an uninvolved admin. Right from the day I joined Wikipedia (when I had no idea how it works), he has been hounding and harassing me. Till very recently, he has been bringing up my actions from the first few days as evidence of my disruptive editing. How dishonest is that. Further, last month, he instigated an inquiry into my actions, based on false accusations, as I had exposed Here and Here. He never bothered responding to these false accusations, despite my repeated prompting. End result was, I was blocked for a week for personal attacks.

I would like to conclude by stating that the committee would likely see a barrage of negative posts here from some of the editors who dominate India/Hindu/Indian religion related articles. These should be treated with caution, as these editors are hand in glove in their ulterior motives to get me banned.

Js82 (talk) 09:24, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Salvio and other members: You state that "Unfortunately, South Asian topics have, historically, ...". This is precisely my point: The entire Sikh religion (and for that matter Buddhism Jainism etc) should not be construed as South Asian topics. I understand there is historical and cultural relation, but that's about it. In the contemporary world, it does not seem reasonable at all to limit these global religions to India/South Asia. If anything, these should be included in a arbitration under some "religion related" clauses (I am assuming one exists here). And to reiterate what I said above, covering all these religions under the purview of India-Pakistan discretion only gives editors and admins who are active in India/South Asia pages unjustifiable powers to tacitly impose their own views and POVs on these otherwise global religions. What this does in effect is make any new editors (like myself) who join Wikipedia with an honest intention of improving articles on Sikhism feel suffocated and hounded in face of these unjustified discretionary powers.

To quote, from the very same first reference that has been used to actually even justify the the term "Indian religions"

At a more profound level, geographical classifications are unacceptable because they have nothing to do with the essential constitutive elements of religion. The physical location of a religious community reveals little of the specific religious life of the group. Though useful for some purposes, geographical classifications contribute minimally to the task of providing a systematic understanding of human religions and religiousness. Adams, C. J., Classification of religions: Geographical, Encyclopædia Britannica, 2007

As an example, to further point out the flaws and the misleading nature of such geographical prominence, I quote:

By this test Sikhism, though born in India is "a religion of the West" in texture and temper, being non-idolatrous, prophetic and revelatory Kapur Singh. Parasaraprasna. Guru Nanak Dev University Press. ISBN 81-7770-014-6.

I hope that all the members here would debate my amendment appeal critically. Js82 (talk) 18:51, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't new, it's been happening since day 1, and a classic case of WP:IDHT. I came across this on WP:AN3 -- Sardarji joke where Js82 (as an IP first and then as an account) was editing against consensus and blocked the IP and then the account. Point in time snapshots of the user talk page show the various warnings on issues spanning copyright violations, edit warring, original research, NPOV, personal attacks etc across multiple articles. I have sought a second opinion from NeilN in the past regarding this as I have been unable to get through to the user, but sadly that doesn't seem to have helped either. There has been an enormous amount of discussion at various talk pages ([5], [6], [7] -- the full page from those sections provides the necessary context). Today it was this response to a critique of sources. Given the editing pattern and behavior since creation of the account, unless the editor shows that they can adhere to policies and guidelines in other areas, this sanction is necessary. Please ping me if you need any clarification. —SpacemanSpiff 10:17, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rich Farmbrough: Islam and Christianity would not be included but Islam in India and Christianity in India would be, this is per the AC motion listed at WP:ARBIPA. —SpacemanSpiff 04:06, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do encourage User:Js82 to withdraw the request, and take the six months to learn about how Wikipedia works. There is every chance that had the topic ban not been considered available a similar length block would have been used.

But I am concerned with the interpretation of "broadly construed".

"Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all pages related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed."

If we are to include the major religions of the region, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Islam and Christianity, we are including 98% of all our religious articles, at a guess. And that is only one facet of knowledge

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:42, 19 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Decline Indian religions are in the scope of the discretionary sanctions authorization. Based on the information provided, the sanction in question seems appropriate. "They started it", even if true, does not give one a pass on civility or disruption. LFaraone 20:02, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• The appeal has been withdrawn, so there is no need to focus on that issue. On the other hand, concerning the request to amend the original case, to unauthorise discretionary sanctions for edits relating to Sikhism and other religions, I am not inclined to accede.

  Unfortunately, South Asian topics have, historically, proven to be rather contentious and to flare up unexpectedly (for the best example of this, see the articles about castes), and that is why ArbCom was forced to authorise discretionary sanctions in the first place. In light of that, I'm not really in favour of limiting the scope of DS in that area, as I don't see how that would possibly be beneficial. And, though many Sikhs may not live in India today, the (historical and cultural) link between India and Sikhism is strong enough that, in my opinion, it justifies the inclusion of the topic among the ones covered by WP:ARBIPA. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 09:48, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with Salvio. Sikhism is clearly covered as things stand today, and I don't see a good reason to change that. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Formal decline although I see the request is withdrawn. Doug Weller (talk) 16:07, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• No comment on the appeal, as that has been withdrawn. Decline the amendment request re Sikhism per Salvio. Thryduulf (talk) 16:20, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by Cirt at 05:35, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Cirt and Jayen466 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 1

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Cirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Jayen466 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• diff of notification Jayen466
• diff of notification The Rambling Man

Information about amendment request

• Remedy 1

• Amendment to allow Quality improvement project for one (1) article which I previously improved to WP:GA = Typewriter in the Sky.

1. I'd like to respectfully ask the Committee to amend the case to allow me to work on further improving the quality of one (1) article I'd previously brought to WP:GA, namely: Typewriter in the Sky.
2. I've served the Wikipedia community for the past four (4) years since the closure of the case by working on Quality improvement projects — successfully bringing many articles to Good Article and Featured Article quality.
3. In the interim since the closure of the case I've been placed under the mentorship of The Rambling Man and under this guidance, successfully taken a page approved by the Arbitration Committee, to Featured List quality. See: (Motion by Arbitration Committee) and (promotion of page to Featured List quality)
4. In addition I've focused on quality improvement projects to bring articles to higher levels of quality — this has resulted successfully in five (5) Featured Articles, two (2) Featured Lists, and thirty (30) Good Articles, among other types of quality contributions.

My thanks to the Committee for revisiting this case after my four (4) years of Quality improvement efforts to Wikipedia — and considering my appeal request for an exemption on one (1) article, Typewriter in the Sky. — Cirt (talk) 05:35, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm more than happy to help Cirt here, and also more than happy to be contacted by any member of the community who may believe that Cirt has over-stepped any particular mark with regard to editing this particular article. I actually trust that Cirt will not do anything to jeopardise their standing here and I'm also minded to thank them for the manner in which this situation has been conducted. To whit, I am happy to act as Cirt's mentor, moreover I am happy to take full responsibility for anything that Cirt may do as I actually implicitly and totally trust this editor. Happy to answer any questions Arbcom/the community has to offer. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:10, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Roger Davies: No, I have no experience of editing Scientology articles but I have a reasonable awareness of the organisation, the history, the people involved and the controversies surrounding it. I have plenty of experience in rooting out POV editing, I'm very cautious in all of my own content creation to maintain a neutral perspective, of course. In the previous round of mentoring, Cirt was very keen and open to me about each and every proposed edit he wanted to make, so I have no worries in that regard. Plus, the offer I made in my previous statement stands, if I'm prepared to take full responsibility for Cirt's edits, there should be no problem. After all, we have undo/rollback, admins to block us and 'crats to remove any/all privileges. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:26, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Roger Davies: I've done you the courtesy of answering your query, the least you can do is respond in kind here, even if your opinion is entirely moot. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If nothing else, I would be willing to at least provide any information I can regarding reviews of the books and discussions of it in the various sources I can find to those involved. Having said that, this article is, at best, peripherally related to what seems to be the central subject of the sanctions, which may have been regarding the philosophy of Hubbard and Scientology proper, and it seems to me anyway that the possibility or probability of there existing even much real motivation to slant this particular article too strongly one way or another would be at best less than productive, and that Cirt would probably know that and be unwilling to damage himself by engaging in problematic conduct on this article. John Carter (talk) 19:34, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding questions of subtle POV pushing, I am aware of some of the issues involved with that and Scientology, and, although my own credibility in this matter may be seen as limited, and I certainly don't want to try to take responsibility for anyone else's edits like TRM is generous enough to do above, I can try to at least point out anything I see which might strike me as being maybe less than neutral. John Carter (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Per Courcelles, I would like Cirt to be released from sanctions entirely. Knowing TRM to be a stern taskmaster (with whom I sometimes strongly disagree) Cirt will be under supervision and I'm sure a strong net positive to the project. Jusdafax 00:02, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• I'd like to hear from The Rambling Man before deciding on this - particularly whether, if the request is granted, he would be prepared to act in the same role with regards this article as he did with respect to the featured list. Thryduulf (talk) 16:24, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• This seems a pretty straightforward up or down vote, so I've proposed a motion accordingly. I see no significant issue given that TRM is willing to supervise again. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:59, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Question for @The Rambling Man: Thanks for the offer to mentor. May I ask please what direct experience you have of editing within the Scientology topic and whether are you familiar with likely sources? Did you, by any chance, follow the Wifione case, which has parallels with the type of POV pushing that Cirt has previously engaged in both the New Religious Movements topic and in BLPs? And how confident are you that you will be able to determine whether POVs are being subtly pushed?  Roger Davies ^talk 12:42, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • @The Rambling Man: My apologies. I thought I had responded within an hour or so of you posting. I must've not saved ... Apologies again,  Roger Davies ^talk 02:45, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1) Notwithstanding other restrictions on his editing, Cirt (talk · contribs) may edit the article Typewriter in the Sky, its talk page, and pages related to a peer review, good article or featured article candidacy for the article. This exemption may be revoked by any uninvolved administrator as an arbitration enforcement action should Cirt fail to adhere to Wikipedia editing standards while editing under the exemption. Appeal of such a revocation would be through the normal arbitration enforcement appeals process.

For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:59, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
2. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 01:35, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
3. Given TRM's vote of confidence and willingness to act as a supervisor I see no reason not to support this. Thryduulf (talk) 02:05, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
4. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
5. This goes nowhere near as far as I'd like to go, which would be the total parole of this sanction. Courcelles (talk) 07:29, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
6. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 09:26, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
7. Support per Thryduulf. Doug Weller (talk) 10:46, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
8. Makes sense & I cannot see how it is likely to do any harm DGG ( talk ) 18:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
9. NativeForeigner ^Talk 11:19, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
10. LFaraone 21:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain

• Awaiting response from TRM. While in principle I am not opposed to a single article exemption, I do wish the edits to be closely supervised (and preferably viewed with a degree of scepticism by the supervisor).  Roger Davies ^talk 12:46, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by Waenceslaus at 16:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Waenceslaus arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Longevity topic related articles

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Waenceslaus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Information about amendment request

• Longevity topic related articles

• Kind request of the user Waenceslaus to get un-topic-banned in the field of longevity.

Greetings, I am a Wikipedian from Poland since June 17, 2014. My main area of interest is the study of extreme longevity. I have been topic banned in August of 2015 on the basis of misunderstanding regarding the consideration of reliability of sources used for the topic related articles. Being unaware of new settings, I reverted a destructive edit which removed a source that has always been considered as reliable and as a result my account was topic-banned for all the longevity related articles. I consider this decision as very unfortunate for the reason that it has been forced too fast so that I didn't have an opportunity neither to say anything in my defense nor explain the position I took. Over the past year of my activity in this area, I have made many constructive edits as seen in my contributions' page. Furthermore, I have created many new articles related in the topic area such as List of Polish supercentenarians, Aleksandra Dranka, List of Czech supercentenarians, List of supercentenarians born in Austria-Hungary, List of supercentenarians born in the Russian Empire, List of supercentenarians from the Nordic countries, List of supercentenarians from Asia, List of supercentenarians of the Caribbean, List of supercentenarians from Oceania, Maria Pogonowska. I believe that I brought much for this branch with my work and I am still willing to contribute further. Therefore my kind plea. Sincerely, Waenceslaus (talk) 16:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This appeal should go elsewhere. The ban was *not* under discretionary sanctions. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive895#Topic ban for Waenceslaus.

This was a regular community topic ban imposed by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise in August, 2015. It's been entered in WP:RESTRICT. The editor was notified here on user talk. There are discretionary sanctions provided under the Longevity case but FP did not use them. So unless Arbcom thinks there was something abusive here, there is nothing for User:Waenceslaus to appeal in this forum. EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Decline as a valid community sanction --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:14, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Decline Valid community sanction, that even if we could overturn, I see absolutely no reason why it should be. Courcelles (talk) 20:27, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Technically, this is the wrong venue, as appeals of community sanctions should go to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case; then again, as far as I'm concerned, there's no point in moving this thread there, since I don't see any reason for us to overturn the sanction. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 21:10, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Decline. While theoretically we can review community sanctions, we would only overturn them in cases where there were very serious issues. Even if filed properly, there isn't any chance we would overturn this one. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:55, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Per Ed Johnston. On the basis that there wasn't anything abusive, decline. NativeForeigner ^Talk 11:20, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Decline per Salvio. Thryduulf (talk) 11:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Decline. LFaraone 21:28, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]