Talk:New world order (Baháʼí)

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would be beneficial to add a section mentioning a few criticisms considering the attention a corrupt new world order system would have on the human global populace. keep in mind that there are many who have accurately researched how immoral, greedy, self-centered, narcissistic, etc many global leader who have tremendous power...are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa (talk • contribs) 19:03, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Gizziiusa Agree, at least, the sources are needed, which see the topic more neutrally, especially, the utopian character of the idea. There is already a signal of resistance. Geysirhead (talk) 10:34, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article is framed by the assumption that the Bahai "new world order" is a system of governance, but there's no source for this in the article and I haven't found any substantiation. The initial locus for the phrase "new world order" in Bahai is Baha'u'llah saying النّظم الاعظم, and Shoghi Effendi translating it as "The world's equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind's ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System -- the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed." (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 136) The Arabic phrase does not connote a system of governance. Shoghi Effendi's translation should be read in the light of examples such as this: "He (Shoghi Effendi) was very happy to hear that you and your dear wife are so active in serving the Faith, and that your children are receiving the inestimable benefit of growing up in this New World Order of Bahá'u'lláh." (by a secretary on his behalf, 1946) In a much earlier letter, which he wrote himself, he says that his readers should get a "clear conception of the exact purpose and methods of this new world order.." (Baha'i Administration, p. 62) and then "as clear a view as possible of the manner in which to conduct the affairs of the Cause ..." (Baha'i Administration, p. 62). There is nothing about world governance in that section. So is the whole article based on a preconception, that has not been checked against the original Arabic and the vocabulary of Shoghi Effendi, the author of the phrase? 161.29.183.182 (talk) 01:50, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Very valid question; I think there is a strong case to be made for renaming the article Golden Age (Baháʼí), The Most Great Peace, World Order (Baháʼí), or even Baháʼí eschatology. An article like that could focus on the vision of the ideal future society which is discussed widely in sources. All of these terms are much more widely used than "New World Order" as far as I can tell.

If instead the article is meant to be about Baháʼí views on government and the ideal relationship between the religion and the state a name like Baháʼí views on government or Church and state in the Baháʼí Faith could be appropriate.

Underswamp (talk) 18:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I was imagining adding to the article from the other direction. Henry Jessup's talk at the World Parliament largely lamented the cause of Christian unity and peace being sore troubled circa 1893 and quoted Baha'u'llah offering a "Christ-like" perspective, a world vision, of a world of peace and unity. And go on through history going through examples of Baha'is and Baha'i institutions delving into peace, and peace-is-more-than-an-end-to-war type projects and initiatives both inside and outside the Baha'i community (things like Abdu'l-Baha and Ali Kuli Khan attending the Mohonk Peace Conference, the Tablet to the Hague, "Baha'i Peace Plan"s being the subject of public talks after each world war, talks and classes given at Baha'i schools, initiatives on race amity, UN Day being supported even while also proposing revisions to the UN Charter, socio-economic development projects) all in the context of history and recent history, not just a vision for the future. Smkolins (talk) 19:23, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to get a handle on what the actual topic of the article is still - is it right to say the article is about the stages of progression towards the Golden Age / Most Great Peace? That's to say, the steps of "persecution" to "recognition" thru the "Lesser Peace", etc? If this is the case I would try to bring back some of the structure from the old page circa the 21 Sept 2022 edit. As it stands now the article is very unwieldy and I still have some issues with the name. Perhaps Baháʼí Faith and political unity? For reference there was also a lengthy discussion on merging and sourcing issues back in late 2023. I appreciate your reply! Underswamp (talk) 13:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well it is a stub. Should grow somehow. I'd say among the Baha'is the vision of the future is certainly part of it but grounded moment to moment in what can we do here and now - and now is over a century old in the west and close to two centuries in the middle east. Add the Baha'i developments in Persia before the persecution and that adds still more dimensions. I cannot conceive of these various initiatives and talks and programs as isolated from an overall scheme of working for a future as described. Smkolins (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As to the name of the article, I find it useful to glance over Outline of the Baháʼí Faith. This article is a sub-page from Baháʼí Faith and the unity of humanity. I would support a name change to Most Great Peace or World Order (Baha'i) or Baha'i Faith and the unity of nations, etc. Overall I think it stands out as a prominent Baha'i teaching and probably deserves its own page, but could use some cleanup as always. As I mentioned in the merge proposal, it would be fine to make it an expanded section in Baháʼí Faith and the unity of humanity. I have other priorities so I probably can't help much. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the Template:POV tag to this article as the article is written overwhelmingly from a Baháʼí perspective. As one small example, I just changed an instance of "His" to "his", referring to Baháʼu'lláh - I'm happy to provide plenty more examples of bias if it isn't clear from the article itself. The sourcing is decent with some secondary sources and there is a lot of information (a lot of which is probably usable) but almost none of it uses an encyclopedic tone. The page was totally rewritten at the 20 March 2024 edit. I will try to keep coming back to this article and clean it up. Underswamp (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(rough citation syntax)

At the afternoon session of the 1893 Parliament of Religions held at the New Jerusalem Church, Rev. Henry H. Jessup, come from Beirut, Syria, as it was politically assigned then, presented to his audience on the theme the world's struggle to embody Christ's message of a universal peace and fellowship. His talk was approximately quoted in the Chicago Inter Ocean newspaper of Sep 24, 1893.^[1] In it he raises the call of what the Christian influence should be by citing the encounter of the unnamed E. G. Brown, "Cambridge scholar", with Jessup moved to say in part that Baha'u'llah, as published in the newspaper,

"…gave utterance to sentiments so noble, so Christlike that we repeat them as our closing words.[sic] That all nations should become one in faith, and all men as brother: that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened: that diversity of religion should cease and differences of race be annulled. What harm is there in this? Yet so it shall be. These fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the 'most great peace' shall come'.

Do not you in Europe need this also? Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country: let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind.["]

Browne published this in the A Traveller’s Narrative, Vol. 2.^[2] There are two primary accounts of Browne's meeting. The other is in correspondence with a Russian scholar.^[3] Baha'is see two primary teachings of the religion in such wording - unity of religion and unity of humanity.

Browne describes his experience of Baha'u'llah reciting a tablet that he copied down in his own hand and later translated as "the words which, besides many others, I heard from Beha" of his recollection of Baha'u'llah's words, but they are circulated in Baha'i accounts.^[3] This "recited Tablet" has been identified^[3] and some of which was published by Shoghi Effendi in Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, entry CXXXII, as "The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion.…" which Baha'u'llah used conversationally and turned to Browne "…in Europe".

What do people think? Smkolins (talk) 07:17, 31 August 2024 (UTC) Smkolins (talk) 07:17, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]